Allowing Optics in the CMP Black Rifle Matches

[usmcveteran]

We have a match in Springwater on 04 OCT, if interested. We are not so stiff with the rules down that way.

In regards to the OP, I have been saying it for months on the CMP forum....all those staunch 'old school is the only school' iron sight type will be as common as the M14 is now.

Ironsightosaurus, they will be remembered as fondly.... As the ACOG Child looks up to Daddy and asks"What is a front sight post?" Daddy sez "It was used to create a spark in olde firearms, I think, son..."

Rumor has it that this is another attempt by CMP to (re)create another revenue stream, as they are starting to RUN OUT OF GARANDS.

Many old shooters, whose eyes have gone south, may re-join the community, or encourage the younger military folk to get in the game, if given optics. I can't speak for USMC, but US Army has not taught iron sight shooting in some number of years. At minimum, M68 Aimpoint on an M16A4 if not M4. These rules seem specifically tailored for the ACOG.

This also leads to the 'as-issued' issue. If it's issued, why not permit it. Should an individual want a 14.5" SBR to compete on the line, why should it not be allowed. There are certainly more M4s in use than M16's (which I have been informed have all been issued to ISIS via the Iraqi Army).

And no one wants a 20" heavy barrel with lead weights. Kids want Action Rifle. Bang bang reload bang Call of Duty woohooo!

Please note, this strategy to involve more shooters is a wide front. CMP has also dramatically added to their list of approved pistols, that was once limited to only M1911 and M9, to nearly half a bajillion pistols (attachment below). Basically if it was issued to any government entity (local, state or fed) it is now on the approved list.

The EIC pistol matches are dying, and no one was going to buy a 1911 or beretta 92 just to chase points. THEN drop $1500-2000 to pimp dem out to match quality. AND these matches are a b*tch to shoot. Single handed pistol shooting at 50 yards? SINGLE HANDED PISTOL SHOOTING AT 50 YARDS?!?! Damned kids just wanna IPSC, anyways.

I just attended the NYS Pistol Championship in Buffalo last weekend. There were 5 shooters, through the end of the NRA 2700 and the start of the CMP matches. And they carried umbrellas in the rain.

I was in from 03 to 07. We had ACOG's issued but evertime I had to qualify at range it was with iron sites.

I remember being a kid and wanting a scope for my bb gun. Dad told me no and that before you shoot with a scope you need to master iron sites. He said scope was an aid and that iron sites we basics.

I shot my red Ryder a lot in basement.

[Liberty's Teeth]

Can I play with this 4X too

[WARFAB]

I totally think it will have an impact on the sport.Look at where all the $$$ is going now.....Any range, any time...how many iron sight shooters do you see? At the Nationals, how many competitors are 'aging out?'

I know one day my eyesight is going to be shot too, especially considering my chosen vocation. Not looking forward to it, but I also recognize that trying to hang onto the old farts isn't a very good strategy for long term growth of the sport. Young shooters are where it's at. Regardless of your eyesight, I'm pretty sure at a certain age baking in the sun all day as you pull targets and cart all your gear up and down the range tends to lose it's appeal. Eyesight isn't the only thing that knocks older shooters out of the sport.

CMP has failed miserably at attracting new, young shooters while attrition eats away at their main demographic.

I'd love to know what the numbers are for the NTI and P100 matches. I'm going to take a guess and say your impression of the youth participation rate is a bit skewed because you only shoot the vintage matches. Granted it's purely anecdotal, but I saw more young (often female) shooters and youth teams represented this year at Perry than I've ever noticed in the past. Many of these younger shooters also seemed pretty serious about it. More than one time I overheard pit discussions about the quest for shooting scholarships. While I'm sure the CMP/NRA could/should be doing better, I'm not sure it's the lost cause you're making it out to be. I'm also not sure the added cost of scopes will help young shooters get into the sport, and I have no idea how that impacts the college shooting team situation.

There are also wider cultural trends regarding the popularity of shooting that have nothing to do with the CMP's efforts. There are many indicators that the shooting sports are seeing a bit of a resurgence in general, so hopefully high power can catch that wave.

Frankly, I find it amusing. I see no difference between this, and the first time an AR15 stepped up to the line at Perry. Every M14 shooter (errrr...everyone) scoffed an snickered at the plastic rifle, and then discounted it entirely; 'that crap has no chance of beating MY precision piece of iron and wood!'

My prediction will be the use of iron sights will go wayside, and die out. Some bitter, hardcore group will hang on, claiming its the only route to masculinity, but they will not be competitive.

But that's exactly my point/concern. How many people are saying scopes won't work for competition? I'm sure there are some people, but I'm not one of them. My concern is that I'm going to be on the line using iron sights to compete against guys with scopes and I'm worried that I'm going to have to spend another $1000 just to try to stay competitive.

[Ham_Chu]

but I also recognize that trying to hang onto the old farts isn't a very good strategy for long term growth of the sport. Young shooters are where it's at. Regardless of your eyesight, I'm pretty sure at a certain age baking in the sun all day as you pull targets and cart all your gear up and down the range tends to lose it's appeal. Eyesight isn't the only thing that knocks older shooters out of the sport.

Yes, but they are leaving at a rapid pace. They are trying to hold onto, and reclaim a few that have left.

Those that claim that scopes "won't work for competition" are obviously deeply entrenched inside a closed mind. How many competitions are already centered around optics? People are scared...that the last 20 years of practice and tens of thousands of rounds are now for naught, and its a totally new game (like when they crated their M14 & bought their first black rifle). CMP is about to hit the RESET button.

Talk on the forums is leaning towards only one class......scopes shoot with irons. are we going to have the P200? or split it down the middle and have two P50's?

And right again...I am home long before NTI and P100... What I see are old crusties, like myself, toting around pieces of iron and wood. There are no kids there (just us behaving as such).

The AR platform lends itself to young shooters. It was great to see the all-girls high school team beat the USMC team, falling right behind AMU. That wouldn't happen in M14-land. Its good to hear kids getting involved. I try to host at least one rimfire match each year for the same reasons.

This very well could be the future of these matches....

[WARFAB]

Official black rifle rules for 2016:

6.1.1 M16/AR15-Type Rifles The rifle must an M16 U. S. Service Rifle or a
similar AR15-type commercial rifle that is derived from the M16 service rifle
design. The following specific rules apply to this type of rifle:

• Must be chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO (.223) cartridge.
• Must be designed or modified so that only semi-automatic fire is possible.
• The gas operating system must be fully operable and adhere to the original M16 rifle design (i. e. Stoner design, gas impingement system) or have a piston-operated gas system.
• The receiver and handguard must be machined as separate parts.
• The barrel may be no longer than the standard A2 barrel length of 20 inches (20 3/8 inches if measured from the back of the barrel extension); flash suppressors are not required, but if the barrel has a flash suppressor, the total length of the barrel, measured from the back of the barrel extension to the target end of the flash suppressor shall not exceed 21 5/8 inches.
• Quad rails or similar hand guards may be used. The front sling swivel may be attached to the hand guard, but must be fixed and located 13.25 in. (+/- 0.5 in.) from the forward edge of the magazine well on M16 configured rifles or 8.0 in. (+/- 05 in.) on M4 configured rifles.
• Upper receivers and/or barrels may not be changed during the firing of any event.
• The trigger pull must be at least 4.5 pounds.
• Metal or synthetic (polymer) magazines, standard issue or commercial equivalent, with standard service 20 or 30-round box magazine dimensions must be attached during the firing of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard service 20- round box magazine.
• The rifle may have an optical sight (reflective sights are considered optical sights) with a maximum power of 4.5X installed on the receiver. Variable scopes with a maximum of 4.5X are permitted. Only commercially manufactured scopes that were produced with a maximum magnification of 4.5X and that have a maximum objective lens diameter of 34 mm may be used. If an optical sight is used, the same optical sight configuration must be used in all stages of a course of fire (changing sights or sight mount configurations is not permitted). The centerline of 30 an optical sight shall be no higher than 3.5 inches above the centerline of the bore.
• Alternatively, the rifle may be equipped with issue-type metallic front and rear sights with a maximum sight radius of 20.5 inches. Metallic sights, if
  used, must have an M16 type sight design with the rear sight in the carry handle and the front sight in the standard M16 location.
• Butt-stocks may vary in length and be either fixed or collapsible. Collapsible or adjustable length stocks may be adjusted during an event, but butt stocks that allow for other adjustments such as the cheek-piece height or butt-plate location may not be used.
• Only standard A1 or A2 type pistol grips may be used.
• An extended bolt release is permitted.
• Left-handed receivers that reverse the operational design features of M16/AR-type rifles are permitted.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf

Anyone have an extended bolt release recommendation? The Phase5 model looks the best to me.

I've already expressed my thoughts on what I think adding optics will do to the competition. My main beef with the final rules is their limitation to NM style iron sights. If they're trying to maintain some semblance of following what the military is using, then it seems like the scope options should be limited to only what the military uses. Since they're not limiting scopes to what the military is using, then why limit iron sights to military style? I'm of the opinion that rifle parity is (was) a huge selling point for CMP competition, but since they're moving away from parity they might as well go all the way. $500 for a nice set of match irons will allow more participation than $1000+ for a scope up to the task.

[big flash]

Kind of funny to me the timing of this along side the USPSA bringing in a carry optics division to their pistol matches.

I've never shot CMP but doesn't seem to make any sense to me to have scoped black rifles in the same competition as the ol' iron sight wood guns. Seems like they should at least have a different division or class. And to warfab's point, why would optics be allowed that aren't issued? Just doesn't make sense to me as an outsider that might get into this if he ever found the time.

[WARFAB]

Just doesn't make sense to me as an outsider that might get into this if he ever found the time.

As much as I dislike the rule changes, it's still a really fun form of competition. The local matches at the GCL attract a great group of guys and are a lot of fun. Rumor has it that the GCL was given an NRA grant to put together a couple New Yorkistan compliant national match ARs so people without rifles can try shooting a match. Or, if you prefer .30 cal, the GCL has a couple loaner Garands. You should join us for a match some time.

[thughes]

And to warfab's point, why would optics be allowed that aren't issued?

Perhaps because requiring "as-issued" optics would price most folks right out of the game?

[WARFAB]

Perhaps because requiring "as-issued" optics would price most folks right out of the game?

There is a good chance "non-issued" optics will price many folks out of the game too.

[big flash]

Perhaps because requiring "as-issued" optics would price most folks right out of the game?

yeah that makes sense, but then again no part of modern shooting sports is really a cheap game.
Consistency be damned I guess.
the way i look at it, parameters need to be set because the next unissued Elcan or ACOG replacement might come out that gives more advantage.
if you don' limit the optics to (at least) what's issued, then if you are back to having a gap in the competition. those that can afford the new greatest thing, vs the old standby. kind of like you are all at now.

[WARFAB]

Interesting to hear that USPSA is going through a similar transition. I'm not as tuned into the pistol world. What are the competitors saying about it? Are we talking red dots or reflex sights? Both can add a lot to the cost of entry for new competitors.

[thughes]

yeah that makes sense, but then again no part of modern shooting sports is really a cheap game.
Consistency be damned I guess.
the way i look at it, parameters need to be set because the next unissued Elcan or ACOG replacement might come out that gives more advantage.
if you don' limit the optics to (at least) what's issued, then if you are back to having a gap in the competition. those that can afford the new greatest thing, vs the old standby. kind of like you are all at now.

Fortunately for me the "new greatest thing" on my chosen platform is almost 70 years old.....

[WARFAB]

Just read an interesting point: If optics are being allowed because the military is using optics, then why not allow bipods too? How about artificial support? Why not allow shooters to rest their rifles on 30 round magazines that are touching the ground when they're prone? You better believe the military uses artificial support whenever they can get it. How many soldiers sling up and wear shooting coats in the field?

The CMP and high power competition are not military training and they haven't been in quite some time.

[thughes]

Just read an interesting point: If optics are being allowed because the military is using optics, then why not allow bipods too? How about artificial support? Why not allow shooters to rest their rifles on 30 round magazines that are touching the ground when they're prone? You better believe the military uses artificial support whenever they can get it. How many soldiers sling up and wear shooting coats in the field?

The CMP and high power competition are not military training and they haven't been in quite some time.

Agreed. I was under the assumption that one of CMP's objectives is to develop marksmanship skills, tough for new shooters to develop basic skills when they get to rely on optics/bipods/etc.

"When I was a kid, all we had were iron sights and an old piece of rope for a sling. We had to walk to the range, barefoot, in the snow, uphill (both ways)......"

[usmcveteran]

Shooting jackets don't help in building shooting skills at least not real world shooting skills.