Allowing Optics in the CMP Black Rifle Matches

[Liberty's Teeth]

USMC, I agree with you regarding M4s issued with optics so they should be allowed in EIC points match. But I have a but..... Seeing how they are issued on a 16 inch barrel you would need to compete with the same😎. I'll shoot irons all day long!!!
Besides optics are for minute of man, and we need more precision with the post and peep. PS, it would be real nice if you would man up and show yourself for another match. You are one of the few newbies I actually enjoyed having!!! I still don't enjoy the Swiss guy

[Liberty's Teeth]

PS, for anyone interested, Attica Rod and Gun is hosting a 40 round sniper match this Saturday. It will be a sling match shot on B27's at 200. Seated and prone. If anyone is game PM me and I will give more detail

[Liberty's Teeth]

K31 is the rifle I compete with! Shoots rings around the Garand. There are strippers available but they're hard to find and rather pricy. I have two K31's so I just do a mag change with the second mag. Sadly, spare mags for K31 are very rare and easily run $150 or more when you can find them. FWIW, I shot my Mosin sniper at a recent match, you cannot use stripper clips with the sniper: I did manage to get 5 shots off, load5 more by hand, and get them all off in under 70 seconds (and I'm a lefty!). Should be possible with the Swiss girl since the straight pull is easier to cycle than the mosin bolt.

A K31 shooting rings around a Garand? That is an incredible observation and no sh*t. It's a bolt gun against a gas gun. Hell I can throw rocks more accurately the the M1 but (there is my but again) they are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot!!!!

[usmcveteran]

When is next match again? So can I shoot my m4 with scope now lol?

[WARFAB]

October 10th.

[Liberty's Teeth]

Hey USMC, long time! How are you doing and how is the new home? As Warfab indicated its Oct 10. Regarding the CMP optics issue, the way I'm reading the proposed rule change is that it must be a CCO so you bring it on pal!

[thughes]

A K31 shooting rings around a Garand? That is an incredible observation and no sh*t. It's a bolt gun against a gas gun. Hell I can throw rocks more accurately the the M1 but (there is my but again) they are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot!!!!

Judging by the way you shot at the last match perhaps you should consider throwing rocks instead.

[usmcveteran]

CCO? Ugh.... My schedule goes out to Oct 9 th. How much in advance do I need to sign up?

[Ham_Chu]

We have a match in Springwater on 04 OCT, if interested. We are not so stiff with the rules down that way.

In regards to the OP, I have been saying it for months on the CMP forum....all those staunch 'old school is the only school' iron sight type will be as common as the M14 is now.

Ironsightosaurus, they will be remembered as fondly.... As the ACOG Child looks up to Daddy and asks"What is a front sight post?" Daddy sez "It was used to create a spark in olde firearms, I think, son..."

Rumor has it that this is another attempt by CMP to (re)create another revenue stream, as they are starting to RUN OUT OF GARANDS.

Many old shooters, whose eyes have gone south, may re-join the community, or encourage the younger military folk to get in the game, if given optics. I can't speak for USMC, but US Army has not taught iron sight shooting in some number of years. At minimum, M68 Aimpoint on an M16A4 if not M4. These rules seem specifically tailored for the ACOG.

This also leads to the 'as-issued' issue. If it's issued, why not permit it. Should an individual want a 14.5" SBR to compete on the line, why should it not be allowed. There are certainly more M4s in use than M16's (which I have been informed have all been issued to ISIS via the Iraqi Army).

And no one wants a 20" heavy barrel with lead weights. Kids want Action Rifle. Bang bang reload bang Call of Duty woohooo!

Please note, this strategy to involve more shooters is a wide front. CMP has also dramatically added to their list of approved pistols, that was once limited to only M1911 and M9, to nearly half a bajillion pistols (attachment below). Basically if it was issued to any government entity (local, state or fed) it is now on the approved list.

The EIC pistol matches are dying, and no one was going to buy a 1911 or beretta 92 just to chase points. THEN drop $1500-2000 to pimp dem out to match quality. AND these matches are a b*tch to shoot. Single handed pistol shooting at 50 yards? SINGLE HANDED PISTOL SHOOTING AT 50 YARDS?!?! Damned kids just wanna IPSC, anyways.

I just attended the NYS Pistol Championship in Buffalo last weekend. There were 5 shooters, through the end of the NRA 2700 and the start of the CMP matches. And they carried umbrellas in the rain.

[thughes]

Please note, this strategy to involve more shooters is a wide front. CMP has also dramatically added to their list of approved pistols, that was once limited to only M1911 and M9, to nearly half a bajillion pistols (attachment below). Basically if it was issued to any government entity (local, state or fed) it is now on the approved list.

Not quite a half a bajillion pistols, I can't shoot my G26, G30, P227, or XDS. Guess this pistolsaurus would have to dust off the 1911. (single hand at 50 yards huh, hhmmmm.....)

[Ham_Chu]

I did say HALF a bajillion, but you need to get rid of those fanny pack guns and get a full sized combat pistol.

The CoF for the Pistol Matches are:
10 rounds slow fire (10 min) at 50 yards B-6 target
(2) 5 round timed strings (20 seconds each) at 25 yards B-8 target
(2) 5 round rapid strings (10 seconds each) at 25 yards B-8 target

30 rounds total. One hand in your pocket (half the fun), the other doing the shootin'
Usually they are paired with the rimfire match, same CoF but done w/ 22LR pistol.

There is another match that supposedly does the above twice, the first series in your right hand (only) and then repeat again with your left (only). Naturally I can't find the documentation on that one right now.

[WARFAB]

Do you think a 4.5 power scope will really be the end of iron sights? I suck at shooting with a scope, so no idea if 4.5x will give people an advantage of not.

As far as getting more people involved in the sport, iron sights was actually a factor that got me interested in high power versus F class. An iron sights service rifle is a relatively cheap and easy entry into competitive shooting. Having to buy a scope to stay competitive would make me consider whether I want to stick with it or move to a different discipline.

Putting some effort into promoting the sport would do more to put butts on the firing line than a rule change at this point. There is a certain segment of society that has disposable income, but wants nothing to do with hunting. If the NRA threw some money and effort into promoting the national matches, that same demographic might get interested in shooting black rifles..... and get pissed about politicians trying to ban them too.

Cue NRA complaints in 3... 2.... 1....

[Ham_Chu]

I totally think it will have an impact on the sport.Look at where all the $$$ is going now.....Any range, any time...how many iron sight shooters do you see? At the Nationals, how many competitors are 'aging out?' How many competitors have those stupid looking magnifying glasses strapped to their head? and how many more have lenses in their rear sight aperture (and some even in the front sight, too)??

Those that are aging out, its mostly due to eyesight. My range is full of them....this is why they fill up 3 firing orders each month for their either (rimfire & centerfire) benchrest matches with their 32X scopes. They can't see the target w/o them.The old eyes can't focus on the sight and see a blurry target, they see nothing out there. All are shooters over age 55.

CMP has failed miserably at attracting new, young shooters while attrition eats away at their main demographic. With the upcoming loss of garand sales revenue, they will need to survive on match entry fees, both abroad and at the three annual CMP games. I'm betting that the new Anniston facility was another gamble at making that cash back through hosting more matches. Alabama weather permits matches year round, and is completely automated (no pit duty...another detractor). They just made it too small, IMHO.

Frankly, I find it amusing. I see no difference between this, and the first time an AR15 stepped up to the line at Perry. Every M14 shooter (errrr...everyone) scoffed an snickered at the plastic rifle, and then discounted it entirely; 'that crap has no chance of beating MY precision piece of iron and wood!'

My prediction will be the use of iron sights will go wayside, and die out. Some bitter, hardcore group will hang on, claiming its the only route to masculinity, but they will not be competitive.


And the costs of customizing your NM AR just doubled. (not to mention the 18 month back log at White Oak converting all those uppers to flat tops and then pinning the irons on the removable carry handles, just in case). It goes back to what the military is issuing. The more $$$ spent on the sport equals more ad revenue for CMP.

But, hey, I am an idiot, and have never been right at anything. I do feel confident that MY matches will remain unchanged. I feel good that at no point will I even have the option to mount a rail on my Garand and scope it out. (but I already have the rail, should the need arise...SEE: Pimp Daddy Garand Experiment)

But.....One day this summer I took my M1903A3 and M1903A4 to the range and shot them side by side...That 2.5X scope made things F'ing sweet! No post obscuring the target (black post, black target), just thin crosshairs bisecting the black. Centering was so much easier, and you see so much more of the target. Needless to say, the A4 outperformed the A3. Hands down.

Warfab, you don't shoot scopes better b/c you don't shoot them enuf. Just a different learning curve. If you spent the same practice time behind an ACOG that you do with your irons, I am sure that your new scores would surpass your old rather quickly. Fighting paralax instead of front sight focus. The collapsible stock option is 'supposed' to be a fix for eye relief issues.

No more sight black, and adjusting elevation for the sun. Plus an illuminated reticle might make shooting out of the GCL 'cave' a bit more pleasant.

[Ham_Chu]

Sorry.....The Pimp Daddy Experiment:

[Liberty's Teeth]

Sorry.....The Pimp Daddy Experiment:

There you go Ham_Chu, a mans rifle. I dig it!
Who needs a home defense gun, when you have a neighborhood defense gun like the good ol'14/1A