300 winmag alternative for long range

[Meketrefe]

These subjects and type of threads are very popular in other forums while in NYF nobody really cared much about wilcats,
ballistics, or anything related to shooting for that matter.

I am a huge fun of the 308 bore. I have been shooting the 308W and winmag for many years and I cannot get enough of it.
I tried larger and small bores and like them too for several purposes but for a do it all, do it pretty well always come back to the
308 and that includes also shooting within a reasonable budget.

I know what you are thinking, if you are shooting the winmag what else could possibly be needed but let me tell you ocassionally
you will reach for the heaviest bullets your case can launch at decent speeds and wheter is for an moose hunt using a long shot
or just to see if you can hit some target very far away you want grain.

Of course is not just the grain alone but some decent ballistics that can take that grain to some distance and still retain the velocity
to do whatever needs to be done. In case of game you want to stay withing the minimum recommended by the manufacturer and
if you can maybe look for a softer bullet depending on the game and weight.

The win-mag might be overkill for many situations but at the other hand if one gets comfortable with it one might find surprising how
versatile it can be. With all that said the winmag suffers from a little problem that might not be well known but that it definitely can impact
its performance.

Before you jump into the RUM and 300-378 or any other crazy alternative please hear me out. Those are clearly overbored, also suffer
from case design problems and or they require very expensive equipment that is hard to justify.

The winmag might not be perfect but it is super popular and unlike conventional thinking it can be very accurate for a belted magnum just
like the 7rem mag and several others.

The issue is that if I take the best bullets that the 308 department has to offer then the winmag falls a tad short literally. Not by much but the long
case with short neck and the imposed max COAL by the longest magazines makes one wonders if there is an easy popular upgrade
without going with exotic options and w/o overboring.

These are the options I have been considering for re-barreling a heavy rifle.

Initially I though about the popular WSM reamed to work in a long action using one of the extra free bore match reamers. It makes sort of a 6mm
norma BR in 308 version and on steroids. I looked at the data and ran the nrs. in quick load and found no benefit in spreads and reach. I needed more powder.




The next I looked at what is a very popular wildcat that is the 300/375.
Here is the 1st from the left. This is nothing more than a ruger 375 case necked down to 30 caliber.
pic courtesy form nz.hunting friends and forum.



This follows the right directives and I would not be surprised for this to become a successfully commercial version but
I don't want to deal with wildcats for this and also I don't think the 375 ruger takes maximum advantage.

You see, here is the catch...

Ruger and Hornady made a very wise move offering a sensible yet powerful rimless straight case option that works
on popular actions like rem 700, savage 10/11 and mauser actions among others w/o requiring extended actions,
and custom and expensive cuts for the action. Also uses a rim size of .534 that is the popular bolt face for many magnums
belted and straight. But since the appearance of the WSM and RUM line among others one wonders why not to go
with a slightly rebated rim and wider base/case that will further add to the capacity like the case with all the derivates
from the 404 Jeffry and beyond.

So one starts thinking like what about a cartrige that is a tad shorter than the winchester magnum with a more reasonable
neck, with the full .550 diameter at the base vs. the .534 of the 375 ruger but yet it provides a rebated rim of .534?
Many have gone the route of pushing back a RUM for the purpose of using the best and longest bullets and w/o running
over the ogive. One might also think why not use a 300 norma magnum or 338 lapua magnum and neck this down but
then again those use special bolts, are very expensive and will end up super overbored. Plus those work great for what
they do that is in the 338 department.

So going back to the RUM one would think why not to push those back and get some more efficient case that will also allow
the use of the best bullets? Well, the answer is that this was already done in the year 2010 in response to the 375 saturday
night fever and success. They called the shorter RUM the RAM line for (Remington American magnum).
.300 Remington American Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But then if you really look at the design closely one arrives to the conclusion that an improved case of these characteristics
is nothing more than the nice yet exclusive 300 Dakota. I actually took some of the cases I have from collection and from shooting
with other people and compared to the advertised RAM and gave me something very similar in practical terms.

300 RAM (Shortened and improved 300 RUM)

.404 Jeffery

Rimless, bottleneck

.308 in (7.8 mm)

.344 in (8.7 mm)

.525 in (13.3 mm)

.550 in (14.0 mm)

.535 in (13.6 mm)

.050 in (1.3 mm)

2.580 in (65.5 mm)

3.340 in (84.8 mm)

105 gr H2O (6.8 cm3)

1-10"

Large rifle magnum

65,000 psi (450 MPa)

And this is the 300 Dakota...



300 Dakota next to a "skinny" 30.06.



But if you noticed the Dakota cases have actually a tad larger rim. Don't ask me why but they require a special bolt and custom actions
from Dakota rifles or you have to machine one. Or you can actually chamber the rifle to work with the standard magnum rim and then forget
about the Dakota ammunition that it is not that affordable nor exactly the objective.

So after much research on the subject I am left with the dilemma. I don't find a cartrige that is 100% what I want. This happens to many people
and probably the reason they end up reaming a variant or wildcat for their F-class competitions, long range hunting or whatever they do with them.
Also the 300 winmag performs so well in a wide range of applications that one feels it can do anything. But when exposed to the best bullets
then the obvious issues show up. At least berger bullets have created a tactical 308 bullet in 230gr that is not as nice as their top 230gr
hybrid but it works well in the longest magnums that otherwise will run out past max COAL before a bullet can be properly seated.

Also I got some of these hoochie mommas below to try and for this a specialized caliber with plenty free-bore is the ticket. However I need
to step down to 1:8 twist that was already in the plans anyway. That is the price you pay for shooting some of the solids / CNC cut that are much longer
than the lead filled counter parts.

Type: Solid copper hybrid profile.
Grains: 197
Ballistic Coefficient G1 of 0.827




So I have not decided yet. This is a long process for me that might take months and probably try some other rifles.

Do you guys have any input, ideas, suggestions???

Don't start going nuts with BMGs, cheytacs, LM and others alike. I have been there and I want to keep this more simple and in the 308 department.

[Meketrefe]

Some might wonder why not the RUM? or even the necked down 338 lapua or norma magnum (338 case)?
It is not so much the energy at the muzzle with popular bullets but also the energy downrange and specially retained speed if you want to pop a large animal (very rarely but it happens) or if you want to hit some heavy steel with authority. the 7mm is fine and the 6.5mm is popular but it falls short. Actually if you look at the popular 6.5-284 you will see how the original 284 can do more with the same budget and w/o burning the barrels so quickly. But at the moment I am concentrating on the 308 department. I am looking for the 2900-3000fps with 230gr medicine. That w/o a break would be total punishment !! lol. Transsonic range 1 mile obviously depending
on bullet choice, barometric pressure and weather and such.
the 300 378 is overbored as it is the RUM. I need a bit shorter case so I can use the best bullets and that is why the 404 J. baseline w/o going into the wider cases like the massive 416 rigby that is also used by the lapua magnum but that require special actions and bolts and the whole nine yards and then it is too much anyway.

the dakota or something in those lines starting to look pretty good. to me the missing link is something like a WSM in longer version for a standard long action at something like 2.5 for the case length and with a nice neck. 105 grains of water. nothing else is needed really.

I thought about the 300 norma magnum but that is a tad overbored too. I like the geometry of that cartrige. It has a nice wide column and consistent ignition but like the lapua is too wide and too much. Perfect for the 338 caliber but not so good for the 308. So something like that in .555 base diameter will be more than plenty.
I love lapua, the brass is the best but I wish they had a rimless magnum case with the standard bolt face to get down or up to 308.



Initially I can also form Dakota cases from RUM brass. The only difference is that I need to wildcat and use the standard magnum bolt face that is what I want anyway.
I think however the remingtom rum brass is too soft but I at least seems decent consistency wise and I don't load too hot for most shooting anyway.

BTW the CNC bullets I described above you could do (potentially) 3100fps. This with a starting G1 of .802 you do the math. this becomes a laser beam round in 308. very few things can shoot that flat and that far.

[SPIKER]

Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?

[Meketrefe]

Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?

You are echoing my words above. Most folks would not need anything else. But you see in order to shoot further and flatter the 300 winmag has a little issue. That is it cannot use the top of the line bullets. While the winmag match reamer allows for longer COAL still it cannot seat the best bullets due to the cartrige length and short neck. So all the wildcat does is to reduce the size of the case while slightly increase case volume by avoding the belt. This gives the capability to shoot a tad flatter and further than the best calibers including the awesome 338 lapua magnum and
w/o getting deeper into overboring that is already a concern. Also using the standard magnum bolt face.
You see some folks use the norma magnum and the lapua necked down to the 308 and those would be able to shoot even flatter but those are too overbored and barrels will not last. The RUM has the same problem due to the case length. This could be shortened like the Ruger American Magnum version above but the 375 Ruger seems a lot easier to make and while a little less powder is more than plenty. Also people seem very happy with the hornady brass.
The only reason this is needed is to load extreme long range loads and bullets. This will put the best 308bullets on a transonic range up to 1Mile. There is no other reason over the venerable and popular 300 winmag.


More than 1600fps at 1,500 yards and 10.3 mils adjustment.

Your Input Variables

Ballistic Coefficient	0.82	Velocity (ft/s)	3100	Weight (grains)	197
Maximum Range (yds)	2000	Interval (yds)	100	Drag Function	G1
Sight Height (inches)	2.3	Shooting Angle (degrees)	0	Zero Range (yds)	200
Wind Speed (mph)	10	Wind Angle (degrees)	90	Altitude (ft)	550
Pressure (hg)	29.53	Temperature (F)	75	Humidity (%)	0.75

Ballistics Results - 30/300 RUM / Dakota (long throat) with GS 197 CNC projectile

RANGE(YARDS)	VELOCITY(FPS)	ENERGY(FT.-LB.)	TRAJECTORY(IN)	COME UP IN MOA	COME UP IN MILS	WIND DRIFT(IN)	WIND DRIFT IN MOA	WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle	3100	4203	-2.3	0	0	0	0	0
100	2987	3902	0.8	-0.8	-0.2	0.4	0.3	0.1
200	2876	3619	0	0	0	1.3	0.6	0.2
300	2769	3354	-5	1.6	0.5	3	1	0.3
400	2664	3104	-14.5	3.5	1	5.4	1.3	0.4
500	2562	2870	-29	5.5	1.6	8.6	1.6	0.5
600	2461	2650	-48.7	7.8	2.3	12.6	2	0.6
700	2363	2443	-74.2	10.1	2.9	17.5	2.4	0.7
800	2267	2249	-105.9	12.6	3.7	23.2	2.8	0.8
900	2174	2067	-144.4	15.3	4.5	30	3.2	0.9
1000	2082	1897	-190.3	18.2	5.3	37.8	3.6	1
1100	1993	1738	-244.2	21.2	6.2	46.7	4.1	1.2
1200	1906	1590	-306.8	24.4	7.1	56.7	4.5	1.3
1300	1822	1452	-379	27.8	8.1	68	5	1.5
1400	1741	1325	-461.6	31.5	9.2	80.7	5.5	1.6
1500	1662	1208	-556	35.4	10.3	94.7	6	1.8
1600	1586	1100	-662.7	39.5	11.5	110.2	6.6	1.9
1700	1514	1002	-783.3	44	12.8	127.3	7.2	2.1
1800	1444	913	-919.3	48.8	14.2	146	7.7	2.3
1900	1379	832	-1071.7	53.9	15.7	166.4	8.4	2.4
2000	1318	760	-1242.7	59.3	17.3	188.6	9	2.6

[SPIKER]

How about the .284.The true 7mm. F - Class shooters swear by it. The .300 WinMag is just as good but it will put a hurting on your shoulder after a full day of shooting. The last medal winners used the .300 WSM.

[Meketrefe]

How about the .284.The true 7mm. F - Class shooters swear by it. The .300 WinMag is just as good but it will put a hurting on your shoulder after a full day of shooting. The last medal winners used the .300 WSM.

The .284 is amazing. I have used this one and now it is coming back. As you said this is great for F class but not for the objective above. The bullets shoot flat and far but cannot compete
with the 308 and 338 in extreme long range, both in range and momentum (energy on the target). If I had to choose a 7mm I would probably stick to the remmag just because of its popularity
and can also be very accurate. When we talk about extreme long range we are talking about heavy rifles built for that purpose. Good muzzle brakes are mandatory.

3381uprA.jpg

[Meketrefe]

So I could not find a picture of the 300 RAM (Remington American Magnum) variant but I think it would look
something like the first one from the right.
This will give me a bit more than the Dakota chamber and it feels the best balance between powder capacity and COAL.
Water capacity: 105gr h2o.
Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)

From Right to Left:
-300 RAM (more or less)
-300 RUM -parent
-300 Winchester Magnum
-300 WSM
-30.06
-308 Winchester.

[Liberty's Teeth]

Meke,

I have been reading your many posts and I must say I am impressed with the knowledge base you have created. I would like to ask to be put in your will so that I can have access to all, and I mean all of the spiral bound note books you have filled!

PS, cal 30 rules, especially in the 210+ range!

[WARFAB]

Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?

Not to sound cynical, but is taking out a beer can at 200 yards supposed to mean something special?

[Meketrefe]

Just to put things into perspective....
If you can hit your target at 2000 yards it has similar energy than a 180gr load in 357 Mangun rifle with the muzzle against the intended target.
That is why for those who would like to have that kind of capability. Otherwise there is no need.
So the 308 with strong super magnum cases will be hard to displace from the hunting and military fields.
And for those tactical shooters and military the solid CNC bullets have still somewhat decent anti material capabilities as well.

[WARFAB]

I'm surprised Meketrefe isn't hand loading his own 14.9 SOP yet.

We need one of those for the next "shot heard round NY".

[Meketrefe]

Not yet! LOL

Bullet Number		Bore Diameter mm / inch		Groove Diameter mm / inch		Suitable for Calibers
5871690SP011		14.66	0.577	14.90	0.587	14.9mm / .587"
Length mm/inch		Nose Length mm/inch		Weight g / gr
101.0	3.98	60.1	2.37	109.5	1,690
Speed		Max m/sec	Max fps	m/sec	fps	m/sec	fps
1,021	3,350	693	2,275	366	1,200
BC		2.169		1.900		1.364
COL: To determine the minimum and maximum cartridge overall length with this bullet, add the minimum or maximum values to your cartridge case length.					Min mm/inch	63	2.48
Max mm/inch	83	3.27
This bullet is recommended for:						Single Shot Feed
STABILITY FACTOR AND TWIST RATE
A Stability Factor greater than 1.2 is required. Any combination of twist rate and bullet length that does not give at least that, is not suitable. SP bullets are non-expanding spitser type bullets and are not recommended for hunting, unless you have a specific application. For use under 500m, a Stability Factor of 1.5 or even greater can be used. For distances beyond 500m the stability factor can be decreased, but must never be less than 1.2. Some experimentation will be required to determine the best combination for your particular atmospheric conditions.
Choose a bullet length best suited to your rifle twist and type of shooting.
Note that S/F increases as twist tightens. A 1:10" twist is tighter than a 1:12" twist.

[WARFAB]

Please let me know when you head to the range to test your loads on that one. Those bullets are big enough to write delivery message on.

Long delivery messages.

[Meketrefe]

No problem. We will let you know. It will take a while as I have three other projects on the stove right now.

[SPIKER]

Not to sound cynical, but is taking out a beer can at 200 yards supposed to mean something special?

Yeah, it is pretty cool. Why, you disagree?

Chris Kyle...is that you?