Standing position discussion

[usmcveteran]

I just took Chris Fry's practical shotgun class and he talked about some things that made me think. Specifically the comment he made about Military or LE training finds its way to civilians and that doesn't always translate to what civilians need.

This brings me to the topic of the thread.... The standing position.

We learned that you want to square up to target so that your not bladed and the stock of shotgun is in the pocket of shoulder and not on joint itself.

So here is my question....... If we train the way we fight do we really want to be square to the threat? Don't we want to minimize the amount of our body that the threat can shoot?

In Marines I was originally taught the bladed stance then they changed to the squaring up method. When we changes I asked why and was told because when bladed your body armor doesn't protect you and a lot of people were getting hit on side where here isn't armor and were dieing. So by squaring up your presenting your armor which protects you.

So I can see squaring up helps reduce stresses on joint when shooting high recoil firearms but as a civilian without body armor do you really want to present a larger target to your threat?

What are your thoughts?

[masterswimmer]

Good topic. Following along. Bladed sure sounds appropriate for the civilian crew. But what the hell do I know?

[24Pink14Stink]

So, as I rub my shoulder, the pocket is just inside the joint?

standing in a home defense would be dependent on your situation I guess?

[usmcveteran]

Basically you want it in pocket or slightly towards center and push away hand that's holding forend and pulling back with hand on grip / stock

[usmcveteran]

What situation would you want to square off to threat in home?

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[24Pink14Stink]

What situation would you want to square off to threat in home?

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I'm talking standing vs. kneeling really. but if the threat is square to book case in the hallway, I'm square to the threat because I've got 3' of books providing cover. as a lefty, it natural point and protection.

[WARFAB]

I ran into this same debate while looking into the Center Axis Relock shooting position for pistol. It creates a bladed body position making you a smaller target and hopefully harder to hit. For the average guy not wearing body armor it makes sense. Supposedly the isosceles position was adopted by law enforcement mainly due to boy armor coverage.

[big flash]

Imho and based on terminal ballistic class I remember taking at GCL. even if theoretically your profile may be slightly skinnier bladed to aggressor, anything that hits you has potential to go through more organs.

[dwa12479]

The squared up position that Chris teaches I believe is mainly to get the stock of the gun more towards your pectoral muscle, and not on the shoulder joint, so that you can send many more rounds down range and not get beat up by recoil. You can maintain better control of the gun, and it's also easier to get that dominant eye down on the stock for a good sight picture.

[thughes]

If (God forbid) the time ever comes when you have to shoot from a standing position to defend yourself you most likely won't be given an option of squared/bladed/etc, you're just gonna shoot from whatever position you can....so why even worry about it?

[WARFAB]

Imho and based on terminal ballistic class I remember taking at GCL. even if theoretically your profile may be slightly skinnier bladed to aggressor, anything that hits you has potential to go through more organs.

I was wondering if anyone had any information along those lines.

[Ham_Chu]

The military told you to square up to take the incoming rounds on the chest plate, which is better than the side plates...when you got armor. Being from the Cold War era, when a frag vest was the best armor you might see (also what they wanted to send us to Iraq with), we were taught to present the smallest target possible, and that meant prone. Also why Army qualification at the time was nothing but prone unsupported or from a supported foxhole. This was the only two ways you were expected to engage the enemy (deliberate attack on overwatch and deliberate defense in at least platoon strength). All other times you were moving.

Prone with armor presents a lot of mobility difficulties, not to mention its not the strongest on top of your shoulders. And a hit through that will pass lengthwise out to your pelvis (should it get past collarbone).

Train as YOU fight. what do YOU have and how will YOU use it. If you are unarmored, and in platoon strength, I recommend the above.

[WARFAB]

So I need to dig a fox hole in my living room.

[big flash]

I was wondering if anyone had any information along those lines.

yeah it was a decent in depth seminar with the surgeon that shoots (or at least to shoot) regularly on Tuesdays. You guys know who i'm talking about, Dr. Paul Maurer?
it was great, and convinced me on 9mm but of course was pre-safe act neutering us to 10 rounds.

anyway, i'm pretty sure he used a bunch of examples on entry wounds coming from the side going through multiple organs, while anything from directly in front of the chest basically just penetrating 1 organ per shot.

[usmcveteran]

That's a great point as well and worth considering.