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Come one guys start new threads for the off topic stuff
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www.AvidArms.com I'm STIHL out of conditioner!!
Finally joined the ranks of broke homeowner
Am I short stroking or going to fast?
I know he has a bush -
who is off topic?It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no toleranceComment
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Flat Line Projectiles
Flat Line Projectiles provide several benefits simultaneously:
1. Much higher BC when compared with projectiles in its weight class.
2. Higher velocities when compared with projectiles in its weight class
3. Much higher velocity when compared with projectiles of similar BC
The combination of which makes them unbeatable in a shot to shot comparison.
It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no toleranceComment
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GS customs. These are also great. I have worked a little bit with GS but I need to do more testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJFMGfUsrko" data-vcode="VJFMGfUsrko" data-vprovider="youtube" >
30 caliber - 2000 yard bullet. 1:8 twist requried.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/308197SP204.html
Last edited by Meketrefe; 04-17-2016, 08:34 PM.It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no toleranceComment
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I was thinking of his cannon.Comment
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Yes it makes sense for 600 yards and most bullets. What round/bullet did you ask him about or was just in general?Originally posted by WARFAB View Post
Thanks for sharing.
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I asked the question as shown in the screen capture. I asked specifically about 600 yards, but I don't think Kelly does much shooting at 600 anymore since Palma matches start at 800.
Supposedly he called the wind for fellow Top Shot alum George Reinas to shoot a 5" group at 1500 yards. The story I read is that they did that in practice before the filming of the episode since they were the coaches for that shot and wanted to make sure they had their calculations correct. Supposedly one of the film crew members thought it was a fluke and bet them a C note they couldn't do it again. So after filming wrapped up, they did it again and collected their $100.NRA Life Member
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I was thinking of his cannon.Comment
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You talk about all these high BC long range bullets, but I have a hard time taking you seriously if you're not even looking at the 14.9 SOP.Originally posted by Meketrefe View Post
14.9MM-SOP-1.jpg
14.9MM-SOP-2.jpg
Windage? Who cares about windage at anything less than 1500 yards. :Machinegun:NRA Life Member
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I was thinking of his cannon.Comment
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hahaha!! ...and it is light, confortable and practically free!
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I ran across this article and immediately thought of your post.Originally posted by Liberty's Teeth View Post
http://www.6mmbr.com/heavybullets.html
A number of years ago I read an article by Dr. Geoff Kolbe, founder and owner of Border Barrels in Scotland titled "Comments on Long Range Ballistics". Dr. Kolbe’s straightforward assertion in that article was that there is no such thing as a bullet which is too heavy for long-range (prone) shooting. This position runs counter to the widely-held belief that there is a “tipping point†at which the Muzzle Velocity (MV) reduction caused by the heavier bullet will cause it to drift more than a lighter bullet with a higher MV.As muzzle velocity increases, drag on the bullet increases disproportionately; thus, most of what you gain in MV is quickly lost. Note that the heavier bullets (of each type) had a higher actual remaining velocity at 1000 yards despite starting out slower. The heavier bullets also retained a higher percentage of their initial muzzle velocity. Muzzle velocity is a depreciating asset, not unlike a new car, but BC, like diamonds, is forever.
Should you immediately run out to buy the heaviest bullets available for your caliber of rifle? Not necessarily--we haven’t spoken about accuracy, recoil, or chamber and twist rate suitability for heavier bullets. All of these factors. which must be taken into consideration. However, hopefully you now have a better understanding of the result of bullet choices and are in a position to make a more fully informed decision for your next cartridge/barrel/bullet selection.NRA Life Member
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I was thinking of his cannon.Comment
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This was true when in match bullets ballistic coefficient performance increase was related to grain increase almost exclusively. We know grain is a factor but not as important as bore, length, shape design and construction.Originally posted by WARFAB View Post
The thing is you have now lighter bullets that have higher BCs and less engraving force required than larger heavier bullets.
So there is absolutely no good reason to ignore those choices unless one needs the extra mass and momentum on the target. (not energy, but momentum. Two different things)
This is a good example of top performing 30 cal match bullets and how design drives performance vs just weight...
Berger Assortment...Sierra match bullets30 Caliber (.308 Diameter) Description G1 G7 G7FF Twist cat. 150 gr FB Target 0.393 N/A N/A 1:15″ 30407 155 gr VLD Target 0.464 0.238 0.981 1:11″ 30408 155 gr Hybrid Target 0.478 0.245 0.953 1:11″ 30426 
155.5 gr Fullbore Target 0.473 0.242 0.968 1:12″ 30416 
168 gr VLD Target 0.507 0.260 0.973 1:12″ 30410 
168 gr Hybrid Target 0.515 0.264 0.960 1:11″ 30425 
175 gr Long Range BT Target 0.512 0.262 1.005 1:11″ 30420 
175 gr VLD Target 0.512 0.262 1.006 1:11″ 30412 
185 gr Juggernaut Target 0.555 0.284 0.980 1:11″ 30418 
185 gr VLD Target 0.543 0.278 1.002 1:11″ 30413 
185 gr Hybrid Target 0.576 0.295 0.944 1:10″ 30424 
200 gr Hybrid Target 0.616 0.316 0.954 1:10″ 30427 210 gr Long Range BT Target 0.625 0.320 0.987 1:10″ 30419 210 gr VLD Target 0.621 0.318 0.994 1:10″ 30415 215 gr Hybrid Target 0.691 0.354 0.915 1:9″ 30429 230 gr Hybrid Target 0.717 0.368 0.941 1:9″ 30430 If one can build any load that betters the 168gr ones in speed, trajectory and wind drift then one should do that.
Otherwise I don't see the point of going in a 308w case with 185gr-190gr bullets for that small difference in ballistic performance or even
worse BC and taking into account the speed differences one is going to get. Do the math and let me know if you find a better combination.
Maybe I overlooked something. Also the TMKs and the bergers are trued and tested. It is not like something just came out of the factory
line.Last edited by Meketrefe; 04-19-2016, 04:59 PM.It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no toleranceComment
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The chart in the article shows that for all the bullets tested, the heavier bullet for a given design performs better. The Berger 175 cheats the wind better than the Sierra 200 MK, but each successively heavier Berger performs better than the lighter version. If cheating the wind is what you're after, it would appear as though heavier is generally better.
Momentum is advantageous for more than just terminal performance.
He was actually measuring chamber pressure to max out each bullet velocity though. Most of us don't have access to such equipment for determining loads.NRA Life Member
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I was thinking of his cannon.Comment
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Ok. I see what is going on! ...I was thinking M14 / M1A / 308 winchester all along don't know why?!!
So sorry about the comments because for whatever reason I had engraved the 308w and M1A on my brain because that
is the source for more considerations and potential headaches than a Garand or 30/06 in general.
Most specifically around teh popular 155-168-175-180gr choices in the 308 winchester.
I need my medication! LOL
Most ammo for practical reasons is not that different but for competition of course the 30-06 will manage a lot better the 180 to 200gr bullets
so it would be foolish not to try them.
In any case the berger 168gr is out there and the coefficients are true and these hybrids are not that jump sensitive. not sure how much more
speed one can squeeze on a 30-06. On the 308w is a total different story in this case.
Momentum has only effect in recoil and at impact and not in trajectory when flying but it is a concern in military or when knocking down steel at long ranges in competition but not to punch paper. Once again grain might say something but might not be the determining factor in the bullets ballistic performance in flight. Sierra's and berger's advertised ballistic coefficients are pretty close to the actual unlike other brands and we see modern lighter bullets beat other heavier match bullets.
I am not sure when the article was written but perhaps some of the current bullets were not available at the time.
I have not tried flat line but those 30 cal 180gr flat line bullets will stabilize with a 10 twist and might do fine magazine wise with the 30/06 but not sure.
I am going to order a few to try some day.Last edited by Meketrefe; 04-19-2016, 09:03 PM.It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no toleranceComment
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Just a few random notes...as I was reading....
1. There wasn't a soul in PA this past weekend shooting anything other than Bergers (save me and buddy, spraying A-Max's all about the target)...these guys were experienced F-Class or Palma. They probably had their reasons. I have no idea as to the specific bullet or weights, but I doubt they were the Round Nose 110's
2. A guy whose opinion I trust more than printed facts informed me that the 168 SMK is the absolute WORST bullet when it came to breaking the sound barrier on the down side. He did back that up with their solid performance under 800-1000 yds, as long as they keep above mach 1. Said it was fairly specific to THAT bullet, and that the SMK 168 was entirely replaced by the 175.
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hahaha... no 110gr round noses or 300 blakcout anywhere near in a 5 square mile radious right?Originally posted by Ham_Chu View Post
Yes the 168gr SMK got owned by the 175gr SMK that in gold medal or reload verision is a classic in matches at least in the 308 winchester.
Then the berger 168gr hybrid came along and broke all the rules in terms of performance and repeatibility. It is a bit more money but not much. Sierras are not that cheap anyway.
The Amax 168grains is a great long range round to drop goats and other critters if one can hit them. Now they have the same thing with the ELD that new tip that doesn't melt
upon reentry into the atmosphere! lol. Hornday still has some great value / price options for most shooting disciplines.
I just got a large batch of 230gr bergers to try with the winchester magnum heavy rifle and once I save a bit more I am going to try some of those 198gr flat line CNC machined even
if I have to single feed them.
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