Long Range Shooting Thread

[Meketrefe]

Let me find a better example. I am going to do some calculations to se at what exact range in the middle it is the most critical.
We know we can measure this pretty accurately at the shooters position that is not the issue here.
I have some formulas to do wind zones but never thought about integrating this with my home made version. I will also add new rows with inches for easy measure. I know the metric system is tricky for many in the US outside the military.

[Meketrefe]

I have been going through the formulas. We are both right and we are both wrong! lol.

Dividing in two zones if I have a bad reading before the 450 yards cut will have almost the same effect as the same bad reading in the remaining 550 yards.
So you were right here the 500 yards is not a good cut point for the wind zone. But if you make that mistake in the last 600 yards will have more effect than
the same mistake in the first 400 yards. up to 400 yards if the wind stops all the sudden the projected impact will be 54 inches off target whereas if the wind
stops past 400 yards the projected impact will be 79.9 inches.

I created a new formula for the projected impact at each different range:

Projected impact(in) = MOA value in inches * ( Max Range (yds) / Range (yds) )

So if you take the original example:

X = 21.73 * (1000/400) = 54.34"

308w- 178gr Superformace Match 24"	2775	178	0.530	1000	0	100	0.00	200	20	3.0	20	555
Range (Yds)	0	100	200	300	400	500	600	700	800	900	1000	1100
Speed (fps)	2775	2604	2439	2279	2125	1976	1832	1694	1561	1434	1312	1196
Energy (ft.lb)	3043	2681	2351	2053	1784	1543	1327	1134	964	813	680	565
Drop (in)	0.00	2.35	9.84	23.18	43.21	70.97	107.64	154.71	213.92	287.45	377.96	488.78
Path (in)	-1.75	1.69	0.00	-7.54	-21.79	-43.74	-74.63	-115.89	-169.31	-237.05	-321.77	-426.79
Elevn(MOA)		-1.61	0.00	2.39	5.19	8.33	11.85	15.77	20.16	25.08	30.64	36.95
Elevn(MIL)		-0.47	0.00	0.70	1.51	2.42	3.45	4.59	5.86	7.30	8.91	10.75
Windage(MOA)		1.17	2.42	3.75	5.17	6.71	8.36	10.14	12.07	14.17	16.46	18.97
Windage(in)		1.23	5.07	11.80	21.73	35.22	52.66	74.55	101.42	133.94	172.87	219.12
Windage(MIL)		0.34	0.70	1.09	1.51	1.95	2.43	2.95	3.51	4.12	4.79	5.52
Windage(cm)		2.94	12.17	28.33	52.16	84.52	126.39	178.91	243.41	321.45	414.88	525.90
Time(Sec)	0.00	0.11	0.23	0.36	0.49	0.64	0.80	0.97	1.15	1.35	1.57	1.81
Power Factor	494	464	434	406	378	352	326	302	278	255	234	213
Projected impact Zone		12.27	25.36	39.35	54.34	70.44	87.77	106.49	126.78	148.82	172.87	199.20
308w- 178gr Superformace Match 24"	2125	178	0.530	1000	0	100	0.00	200	20	3.0	20	555
Range (Yds)	0	100	200	300	400	500	600	700	800	900	1000	1100
Speed (fps)	2125	1978	1836	1700	1568	1442	1322	1206	1096
Energy (ft.lb)	1785	1546	1332	1142	972	822	690	575	475
Drop (in)	0.00	4.04	16.97	40.24	75.57	125.06	191.31	277.52	387.69
Path (in)	-1.75	3.58	0.00	-13.91	-39.87	-80.00	-136.89	-213.74	-314.55
Elevn(MOA)		-3.41	0.00	4.41	9.49	15.24	21.73	29.08	37.45
Elevn(MIL)		-0.99	0.00	1.28	2.76	4.43	6.32	8.46	10.89
Windage(MOA)		1.73	3.59	5.59	7.76	10.12	12.68	15.49	18.57
Windage(in)		1.81	7.53	17.61	32.60	53.11	79.90	113.84	155.98
Windage(MIL)		0.50	1.04	1.63	2.26	2.94	3.69	4.51	5.40
Windage(cm)		4.35	18.08	42.28	78.24	127.47	191.76	273.21	374.34
Time(Sec)	0.00	0.15	0.30	0.47	0.66	0.86	1.07	1.31	1.57
Power Factor	378	352	327	303	279	257	235	215	195
Projected impact Zone		18.14	37.66	58.72	81.50	106.23	133.17	162.62	194.97	#VALUE!	#VALUE!	#VALUE!

I think the confusion has more to do with the fact that the reading is always more accurate at the shooting position (kestrel) than the guesses one makes
down range but I also see that a reading at 450 yards might be a better reading than 500. In the real world a good reading at 500 will make
a good shot and making sure nothing really funky is going one close to the target. But I think anything between 400 and 600 is going to be critical. More
critical than the first 300-400 yards. 400 to 450 yards might be the point of equilibrium where things could go either way in a two zone bad reading.
Again given the reading at the shooting position is accurate then we perhaps should concentrate in the 400-600 yards mirage that is going to
have a much greater effect. Most scopes with a nice parallax adjustment and some good quality will manage that w/o problems.
I am also going to adjust my mil formula so I can include a 3rd wind if I have to but see if I can make it more flexible yet still simple to use.
I don't do score shooting so I like to keep things fast for broad practical hits.

[LibertyOrDeath]

I like to shoot at 300-400 yards.

There ya go. I have contributed my fountain of knowledge.

Thank you. Thank you very much....

[Meketrefe]

I like to shoot at 300-400 yards.

There ya go. I have contributed my fountain of knowledge.

Thank you. Thank you very much....

300-400 yards is fine. The wind is important too but not a super huge concern.
The wind can get really bad after those ranges specially when pushing past 500 to a 1000 and obviously the people that
do extreme long range 1000-1500 yards and even more. There one needs the 3 wind zones for sure.
Also it is not the same shooting in a course or club with known distances and flags and other known references than shooting
in unexpected places and situations with all sort of variables waiting for you.
Good think practical shooting is not about target scoring for the most part.

[Meketrefe]

30 caliber goodies... Amazing performance!

“These new bullets beat everything out there, even at the highest levels of competition, by 20%.” – Alan Warner, Warner Tool Company

That doesn’t seem to be an overstatement, based on the Ballistic Coefficients (BC) WTC has published on this new line of bullets. BC is measurement of how efficiently a bullet is able to cut through air, and the higher the BC, the better the bullet will be at retaining its velocity and the better performance you can expect downrange. These bullets have ridiculously high BC’s for their weight. Warner & Kunz are currently focusing on 30 caliber bullet designs, plus one 338 bullet design. Here are the details on what they’ve branded their “Flat Line” series of bullets:

30	155.5gr Palma	10	0.553	0.285	0.576	0.290
30	175gr FTR	10	0.678	0.340	0.694	0.348
30	200gr	9	0.780	0.391	0.796	0.399
33	255.5gr LRBT	10	0.814	0.400	0.834	0.411

[Meketrefe]

BTW...
I was playing with the numbers and a 223 69gr SMK at 800 yards is affected more by the wind in the last 400 meters than the first 400 meters.
With the first example we used a quite high BC bullet that was less apparent so as we increase BC and speed the bullet is more forgiving in the 2nd half / wind zone
that is expected. But still for many popular bullets the 2nd half is more critical in long range shots.
There is another good reason to avoid stretching the range that is yaw as we approach trans-sonic range. Many bullets right at the 1600fps threshold all the way to 1,300fps even before
the go trans-sonic. One needs to follow the manufacturers advice but this is an area were I feel one should give it an extra inch of twist if long range is in the menu.
So for example for the 69gr smk the 1:8 twist is perfect that is kind of the standard in national match anyway.
But if we get into some 77gr-80gr vld or even the 80gr amax or tmk I think the 1:7 would provide an advantage extending that trans sonic range.
Now, how is this translating into the real life? well we will probably see less jittery trajectories and better groups that is for sure.
I think even a marginal loss of speed pays off in the end big time. Again, we are talking long range shots.

[WARFAB]

Good think practical shooting is not about target scoring for the most part.

Yup. Most practical shooting doesn't have to be nearly as accurate.

[Liberty's Teeth]

Meke,

You make an interesting comment regarding speed at long range. I'm entering the 800-1000 game this year with 30 and 6.5 cal rifles and the guys that are coaching my loads tell me "big heavy and slow" based not on technical knowledge but practical experience. Please explain how throwing a Volkswagen at baseball speed (sarc) is more accurate at the long range then high MV. I get the wind fighting ability but what is the magic?

[Meketrefe]

Slow and heavy sounds more like big game hunting in the brush in Africa.
But before we drive things out of context maybe they had something specific in mind related to the discipline and allowed calibers in question.
Are you competing in an open class of are you limited to specific comercial or military rounds?
We will talk more about this later.

[Liberty's Teeth]

1000 yard m1a service rifle and 800-1000 match rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor

[Meketrefe]

uff!... 1000 yards with M1A is going to be very hard. What is the barrel length and twist in the M1A? Can you use any reloads you want? What is your max COAL dictated by your magazines or action, whichever comes first?
Also what is the twist and barrel length in the 6.5 creedmoor and why the creedmoor? Is there a category for that one only?

[Liberty's Teeth]

Hoping to stimulate more discussion!

The M1A is a purpose built 1000 yard rifle with 22" 1-10 Krieger and yes the front post is machines down real low. I through 168 through it for reduced 200 yard practice and the boys want my to push 180 SMK for 1000.

The match rifle is a custom 700 short action 24" Bartlien gain twist finishing at 1-7 and is in 6.5 Creedmoor throat burn consideration. It's running 140 gr for long range. This is my first go at match rifle and after I bleed a little I will switch to 6BR

[Meketrefe]

I don't think you are going to bleed, you will do fine.

When you get a chance go and buy some Sierras 155gr and 168gr TMKs.
21" is not much runway but if you can push the 155gr past 2,850fps this will give you an advantage over anything else, including heavier rounds.
Accurate 2520 is a good powder to try but there are others possibly better for a 21" barrel.
A 24" barrel with 155gr TMK can produce 2,910fps. This has about 50" less drop than the 175gr TMK and 70" less than the 180gr smk.
I would stay away from the 180gr SMK. the 155gr TMK has a higher ballistic coefficient and you are punching paper not killing elk or knocking down steel like in
the practical matches. Also look at the 155 and 168gr bergers.
The modern 155gr or the 168gr will do better at any range. The 30 caliber is not that great ballistically until you get into the 210-230gr weights that require
super magnum fuel.

Regarding the special purpose the 7mm is the best all around bullet. A .284 with norma brass and in a long action w. match chamber will put magnum trajectories.
Obviously one could go with the SAUM, WSM and the venerable Remmag but those will put more recoil and roughly 100-150fps gain.
Instead with a longer target barrel and match chamber the .284 can push a 168gr 7mm close to 3000fps w/o torching the throats too fast unlike the magnums.
Ballistically is the same as the 280 that is also an option but the .284 norma brass is amazing.

In the 6mm long range the XC with 115gr pills is king.

[WARFAB]

uff!... 1000 yards with M1A is going to be very hard.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but "hard" is a relative term. I've noticed some number crunchers on the other site that talk about hit percentages based on a WEZ calculator.

I say those people need to step away from the calculator and go watch some long range and Palma matches. There are guys that do things on a daily basis that are supposed to be impossible according to the calculator gurus. A high master classification requires shooting a score of 97% or better for at least 120 shots, and there are plenty of high masters shooting long range and Palma.

[Meketrefe]

The effective range of the 308w is 800 yards.
With modern bullets and ammunition the range is extended but it is not the ideal 1000 yards round.
To that you add the M1A that is not a high precission platform no matter how much time and money one spends on them then you have even a more complex long range shooting system.
Of course even if one has a system that is more complex one is going to learn a lot of things anyway but there are also more variables that cannot be controlled.

The Palma is a complete different animal. Palma rifles, 30" barrels, aperture sights with micrometer. All shooting disciplines are good no doubt about that, if that is what one likes.

In terms of practical use with repeatable precision on smaller targets there are better rifles and calibers for 1000 yards and optics. The F class is fast growing but even there there are many systems so sophisticated and unpractical that doesn't seem like we are shooting anymore.

Calculators are good as soon as the projected values are adjusted from mean value to actual value and that takes time shooting doing actual shooting and correction. After that the
calculator is just another tool. Nothing will replace the actual practice. Designated courses shooting at known distances do not need complex calculations. Wind reading is always key
that doesn't change. Objects and flags help. One doesn't have that in the wild like long range hunting.

For my personal taste I think the service rifles on one side and then the practical platforms like the ones will most likely encounter in a real life long range scenario are more dynamic
and more attractive. I guess this also depends on what is available to everyone, how well the shooting is organized and/or where your buddies drag you to. Everything counts.

In the end the main goal is to have fun no matter what one is shooting.