Non standard powders for reloads

[dsdmmat]

Just a question, I know there are a few guys on here who have been loading a lot longer than I have so this is more of a question for the possibilities.

I know you can use faster powders like 4227 4198 in the 308 for reduced loads, (they tend to be quite accurate from my 700). This is more a can I use slower powders in non magnum cartridges question. Why would I want to do that? I don't it is more of a if I have to do that situation.

Say for example the only powder I can find is h4831 and it is my only option all other avenues of gaining powder are gone (SHTF). In a 30-06 I can load compressed loads without issues. My question is what if it is used for 35 remington, 223 remington, 41 magnum and so on?

in theory should I be able to scoop the cartridge into the powder and wipe off the excess then stuff a bullet onto it in a 223 since it is a very slow powder and it is designed to produce the required pressure for magnum loads with a compressed load that is very much larger (albeit in much larger cases). Say 62 grains verses 26 grains.

Now the second part of the question is will the bullet have enough energy at a 100 yards or less to kill an attacking dog or other similar sized creature?

I really need to order quick load, but for the time being I just wanted to get some input and food for thought from the others on this forum.

[Norm DeGuerre]

hhhmmmnnn
wouldn't a slower powder take up more space ..??

[dsdmmat]

Yes, that is why I ask, slower powder takes up more room so in theory you could not get enough in the case to over pressure the load. But is there enough room in the case to get enough powder for enough pressure for the bullet to leave the brrel and be effective at any distance?

[RandallOfLegend]

I am working up a 125 grain 357 magnum rifle load. Similar situation. Can you trust quick load to give you good enough estimations to not blow your face off?

[dsdmmat]

I am working up a 125 grain 357 magnum rifle load. Similar situation. Can you trust quick load to give you good enough estimations to not blow your face off?

quick load gives you good data as long as you put good data in.

[Meketrefe]

It is not as simple as it seems. By increasing the powder charges to compress loads will increase the amount of powder and initial pressure for ignition but what is needed is a way to
maintain decent pressure as the bore volume expands. bottleneck cartridges will do that naturally as the case is wider than the diameter of the bore so the bore volume to case volume expansion
ratio is slower than a straight walled cartridge. So if one would use, lets say a slower powder in the 223 case, one should be looking to provide more constant pressure to allow a more efficient
burn and not just increasing the amount of powder that might make it harder to burn all the powder also depending on how large the barrel is. Instead one might consider to increase even pressure
by the most popular means that is by bullet choice (diameter, amount of bearing surface, hardness) and bullet weight. This given that the bullet will stabilize with the given twist rate then it will provide more even pressure and although the muzzle speeds will be substantially slower then you have a heavier projectile anyway.
If heavier projectiles are not available one could look if the cartridge would be able to accommodate stacked projectiles or even lead balls.
With the .223 I would try 80gr bullets wih h4831 or whatever is the largest bullet weight the twist can stabilize.

But when we run into close to straight or straight walls then slow powders will not work. Even compressed with safe starting pressure it will leave an unburned mess behind. In this case it would be better to have black powder or the components and tested process to use this as last resort. Straight walled cartridges like the 41 magnum or 357 magnum would be perfect for this. A small supply of sulfur and saltpeter will be inexpensive and last a long time. This is also a great alternative for shot-shells using all other standard components.
Another idea is with slower powders if proper ones are not available one might want to increase the pressure by reaming the cases and using stacked projectiles aside from compressing the powders. This will assure extra grain and extra even pressure given the situation. The same way a 357 case will take a 35 caliber 180gr bullet it might also stack a light 380 80gr hp bullet along with a 9mm 115gr. This would have to be tested to avoid last minute surprises.

But ideally perhaps one should keep one firearm or two that can take the slower powders. Even a just a couple of barrels with a quick change system (savage, glock, etc..) that will take the same components one has for other calibers of faster powders but that can be used to create a cartridge that will work best with slower powders. For example if one has components to reload the 223 and 308 but not suitable powders one could use the 308w case and 223 cartridges and create another cartridges like 22-250 and use that H4831 to get optimal performance. Obviously a set of dies and reloading tools will be required.

Like with any reloading the key is to understanding what we are doing in terms of proper cartrige dimensions, initial charges and the whole dynamic of internal ballistics. Scooping any cartridge flush is not a good way. It might be ok after we test by weight and verify and test the charge and then we know we can reload by volume measure.

In order to get some initial estimates on specific powders we do not need expensive software but to be able to read a powley chart of burn rates and load densities.

[dsdmmat]

Don't take this wrong meke but, most of us here don't speak Chinese.

A simple answer
Like:
Yes in theory stuffing a case full of slow powder would work.
To know how effective it would work specifics as far as case capacity, weight of powder and weight of projectile would be required.

Then the discussion could continue with us mere mortals.

[Meketrefe]

There is no chinese nor simple answer to unconventional loads.
perhaps the only simple answer would be: Don't.

[dsdmmat]

I think I'll just order quick load and be done with the whole discussion.

[usmcveteran]

I know nothing but what are the slow burn powders usually used for vs the fast powders?

When I hear slow burn I think of muskets and muzzle loaders and the need to keep the firearm steady longer as it takes more time for projectile to leave the barrel.

If you start with smaller loads of it wouldn't you be safe in experimenting with it?

[dsdmmat]

Well the potential for the bullet to get stuck in the barrel with slower burning powder is the problem. If the bullet gets stuck in the barrel the pressure is contained in the gun and it will go somewhere.

Really slow burning powders take a lot more volume to produce the pressure that the faster burning powders do with tiny amounts. If you filled a .223 case with red dot there is a good chance you will meet your maker with a loud noise, a ball of fire with a destroyed rifle. With the slower magnum powders may not produce enough pressure for the bullet to be effective at distances beyond 100 yards maybe not even 20 yards.

I am going to order quick load this month. It should be able to predict pressures at the chamber and down the barrel as well as velocities at the muzzle and down range.
The two extremes are:
Fastest burning powders are for shotgun and pistol loads, slowest burning powders are for magnum rifle cartridges a d the 50 BMG.
The powders in between the extremes are made for everything else.

[usmcveteran]

OK makes sense. Great thought on figuring this out before you need! I hope to start reloading in next year or so and I will be following these types of threads because I haven't a clue.

[Meketrefe]

The 223 will work with h4831 and heavier bullets. Performance will suck but it should work.
The straight cartridges is a hassle and a total waste of time and materials.
usmc, reduced loads can be safe but they can also be dangerous as they might lead to a secondary detonation that can raise pressures very quickly to unsafe levels
and end in disaster.
Predictive models work great with bottleneck cartridges. When we approach straight and larger cases, even the predictions do not always hold true so one has to start
adjusting variables according to one's observations. Even quick-load needs a lot of tuning when working on this type of cartridges with unconventional designs or loads
and for that it requires lots of learning and testing. Marty who is the designer of the whisper line and socom is a great guy for this type of questions in some of the specialized forums.
Best thing as I said is to learn to master the art of black powder that is a lot more reliable and predictable for alternative use.
I hope this helps.