AR15 Rifle - Dancing The Accuracy Tango

[Chicken Shoot]

"Pre-ban" means it has an evil flash hider and bayonet lug. Illegal in New York State pre-SAFE act unless you put it on a pre-ban lower. Whether or not it makes your EBR any more or less illegal post SAFE act has been debated ad-nauseum on other forums. Whether or not anyone really cares is a different matter.

I think it's just the upper. No barrel, but the forward assist and such is on it but Mek says they are poo poo. What is this SAFE Act you speak of?

[Chicken Shoot]

comoe chicken.. Bite the bullet and build the real deal. The rewards are many. It doesn't apply in communist NY anymore.

Preban is from the previous sunset federal ban as warfab described the one we had here in NY before SAFE PePeshiltata.

Communist NY doesn't apply to ME!! LOL I've had target .22's that were 21lbs .... the weight is welcome here.

[Meketrefe]

IMO there is little point for the 24 barrel unless you plan single load or want to try a VLD setup. this means loading rounds up to 2.5 long in COAL that do not fit in normal
AR15 magazine so they will have to be single fed or use a VLD magazine (Centerstack). Unless one is doing this there is little gain for 4 extra inches.If you order a custom
barrel order 21.5 inches rifle that is the sweet spot as far as speed / weight / etc..

[WARFAB]

I think it's just the upper. No barrel, but the forward assist and such is on it but Mek says they are poo poo. What is this SAFE Act you speak of?

That doesn't make any sense then. The upper alone does not determine pre/post ban. I'd have to take Meke's word on whether or not they're any good. I don't have any experience with them.

[Cgrutt]

That doesn't make any sense then. The upper alone does not determine pre/post ban. I'd have to take Meke's word on whether or not they're any good. I don't have any experience with them.

Agreed. Stripped upper receiver is just a featureless part. PRI (precision reflex) makes decent parts.

[Meketrefe]

That doesn't make any sense then. The upper alone does not determine pre/post ban. I'd have to take Meke's word on whether or not they're any good. I don't have any experience with them.

the upper reciever alone doesn't have any saying on anything. The issue is with the barrels that are not built for accuracy. ...
I don't know PRI or many others but if they are up to spec they will be fine. IMO skip the carry handle. If you are building you can do a lot better with better sights and more versatile/flexible.

[Chicken Shoot]

That doesn't make any sense then. The upper alone does not determine pre/post ban. I'd have to take Meke's word on whether or not they're any good. I don't have any experience with them.

Exactly my point which is why I stated I didn't understand that part. LOL

[Chicken Shoot]

OK .... so I really like the A2 setup, I hate scopes, I believe that a 20" barrel is the way to go BUT .... I'm also thinking that if I went with a heavier barrel, the correct front sight won't be an option thus Peshitta canning my A2 style build. OK ..... I'm definitely stuck on the A2 stock. Screw the adjustable stocks. I'm also stuck on a 20" barrel with nothing on the end except for a nice crown. The receiver I'll pass on since that's been determined to be poo poo. Trying to do this as cheap as possible which I know won't be easy given I want the rifle to be accurate. Maybe I should just call eric holder and see what he has in stock on the down low?????? LMFAO

[Wildman]

Go with an a2 upper and use an hbar barrel. It will be a full heavy barrel front to back instead of the government profile barrels that go skinny under the hand guard. It will be just like the Armalite I used to have. I miss that rifle and yes the A2 style rifles are my favorite.

This pic is of my old armalite with a trijicon reflex for carry handle. The lower is a cheap one but I had a real armalite one on order and completed it later.

Armalite discontinued doing real A2 style uppers though over a year ago. They are the original and they discontinued their heritage...sad!

[Meketrefe]

Let me clarify the above. The delton receiver is fine. The barrels are not. I personally will stay away from the carry handle or at least have a detacheable one.
If the purpose is extreme accuracy the barrels aforementioned are the way to go but if you want a more budget friendly look into the Fulton Armory Criterion
or even the Rock River Arms National Match that are ready to go. The thing is how to get them to NY, some will ship others wont. In Gunbroker there is a dealer
that will get you any upper from Rock Rivers brand new that otherwise RRA will not ship to NY who knows why.
The detacheable carry handles with small screws is virtually the same but with the added benefit of making the rifle more versatile and hold its value better.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/372...aluminum-matte
you can also find a cheap one in Ebay but I would replace the screws from Ace hardware, otherwise the aluminum is T6 so it should do the trick.
Many ARs will shot very well but IMO do not cut corners on the barrel and gruop, including trigger. Those things are the heart of the AR and make a huge difference.
Also unless you are going to compete there is no substitue for a floating tube / handguard that can be a budget one and still 10 times better than a non-floating
std. hardguards.
Armalite is a great source for the bolts, extractors, pins all very good quality. Barrels are great too but not in the top accuracy game.

This is a great barrel w/o being budget nor high end but very good shooters nevertheless...
http://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelf...ainmuzzle.aspx

[Meketrefe]

For budget the Stoner brand from midway are barrels made by ER shaw and put the Midway brand name. They are great for the money.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/635...ProductFinding

DPMS would be fine for a budget but the problem is that they only do 1:9 for their varmint profile so that is a mistake.

White oak provides great service and varmint barrels but the problem is availability and wait times...
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcar...cat=311&page=1

As I mentioned early in the thead Keep in mind the following points when choosing a barrel:

- Barrel should be a heavier profile than the original A2 at least all the way to the gas block.
- Never buy a barrel with 1/2x28 threads. This is the vast majority of tacticool barrels but 1/2"
threads should have never existed in the first place.
- Consider stainless otherwise melonite. Skip the chrome lined. Old technology.
- Sway away from deep flutes and exotic patterns. They might screw a good barrel.
- Never buy a carbine ported barrel with M4 curts. Mi profile proting is the mininum. not your case in 20" anyway.
- consider an aternative chamber to 223R. Wylde seems like a good compromise.

You might also want to consider this barrel... A great alternative to the stainless with target crown and ready to go.
Great value and very long life... Profile is addecuate w/o being the heavy profile.

http://ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/11562/12239

[Wildman]

Let me clarify the above. The delton receiver is fine. The barrels are not. I personally will stay away from the carry handle or at least have a detacheable one.
If the purpose is extreme accuracy the barrels aforementioned are the way to go but if you want a more budget friendly look into the Fulton Armory Criterion
or even the Rock River Arms National Match that are ready to go. The thing is how to get them to NY, some will ship others wont. In Gunbroker there is a dealer
that will get you any upper from Rock Rivers brand new that otherwise RRA will not ship to NY who knows why.
The detacheable carry handles with small screws is virtually the same but with the added benefit of making the rifle more versatile and hold its value better.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/372...aluminum-matte
you can also find a cheap one in Ebay but I would replace the screws from Ace hardware, otherwise the aluminum is T6 so it should do the trick.
Many ARs will shot very well but IMO do not cut corners on the barrel and gruop, including trigger. Those things are the heart of the AR and make a huge difference.
Also unless you are going to compete there is no substitue for a floating tube / handguard that can be a budget one and still 10 times better than a non-floating
std. hardguards.
Armalite is a great source for the bolts, extractors, pins all very good quality. Barrels are great too but not in the top accuracy game.

This is a great barrel w/o being budget nor high end but very good shooters nevertheless...
http://www.fulton-armory.com/barrelf...ainmuzzle.aspx

I have a feeling extreme accuracy is not top priority here. I have had deltons before and never had an issue with their chrome lined barrels. No optics and shot them with a detachable carry handle and accuracy was as good as any other with iron sights. I have also had a few PSA's and they were very good. The FN made barrels they use were always good.

[Meketrefe]

I have a feeling extreme accuracy is not top priority here. I have had deltons before and never had an issue with their chrome lined barrels. No optics and shot them with a detachable carry handle and accuracy was as good as any other with iron sights. I have also had a few PSA's and they were very good. The FN made barrels they use were always good.

The AR is an inheritly accurate platform so even some budget rifles are accurate for the type of ammo people are going to feed them anyway. service rifles with 2 MOAish are consider decent
but what I propose is something that can produce 1MOA and better with decent ammo. A stag is actually a good carbine as they have some decent QC. With cheap parts kits like PSA, model1, etc.. one can get an acceptable one but also can get things out of spec or bolts that break because those brands do not make their stuff and they use a lot of budget OEM and QC is not there.
This doesn't mean OEM parts mills cannot be good but you are more open to problems of all kinds when you are getting parts from several OEMs sometimes hard to track and with little to none
quality control. Chrome lined is old technology that is why some they are so cheap. Hammer forged barrels can be good or can be so so. The process is a way to make barrels very fast and inexpensively but not necessarily great barrels. FN nice barrels though. In fact FN is one of the three makers that high pressure test their barrels along with colt and H&K. Everyone else is lying about this.
I understand one might want to save and might not be ready to dump $500 on a high end barrel but also with 100 -150 dollars extra from budget one can get a lot more value than bottom barrel
kits and barrels. I suggest to save in other parts like getting a floating hardguard that is $60 vs $160 and spend that difference in a better barrel made of Stainless steel or CMV nitrocarburized
like above. The results pay off.
We are not talking about extreme accuracy here, les baers type of accuracy potential but a substantial increase in potential accuracy and repeatability with a little more money. One cannot even buy 100 rounds of match ammo with that difference.

But again I am thinking people might enjoy putting nice groups inside a quarter or even a dime at 100 yards but maybe not many shooters care about this accuracy potential.
I look at accuracy potential in both the firearm and shooter the same way as a carry pistol. It is better to have it and not to need it than to need it and not to have it, including
the skill that needs studying and dedication.

Like they say ... aim small, miss small.

chicken can tell us if he wants this to spray paper dinner plates or he wants something a bit more accurate.

[Wildman]

The AR is an inheritly accurate platform so even some budget rifles are accurate for the type of ammo people are going to feed them anyway. service rifles with 2 MOAish are consider decent
but what I propose is something that can produce 1MOA and better with decent ammo. A stag is actually a good carbine as they have some decent QC. With cheap parts kits like PSA, model1, etc.. one can get an acceptable one but also can get things out of spec or bolts that break because those brands do not make their stuff and they use a lot of budget OEM and QC is not there.
This doesn't mean OEM parts mills cannot be good but you are more open to problems of all kinds when you are getting parts from several OEMs sometimes hard to track and with little to none
quality control. Chrome lined is old technology that is why some they are so cheap. Hammer forged barrels can be good or can be so so. The process is a way to make barrels very fast and inexpensively but not necessarily great barrels. FN nice barrels though. In fact FN is one of the three makers that high pressure test their barrels along with colt and H&K. Everyone else is lying about this.
I understand one might want to save and might not be ready to dump $500 on a high end barrel but also with 100 -150 dollars extra from budget one can get a lot more value than bottom barrel
kits and barrels. I suggest to save in other parts like getting a floating hardguard that is $60 vs $160 and spend that difference in a better barrel made of Stainless steel or CMV nitrocarburized
like above. The results pay off.
We are not talking about extreme accuracy here, les baers type of accuracy potential but a substantial increase in potential accuracy and repeatability with a little more money. One cannot even buy 100 rounds of match ammo with that difference.

But again I am thinking people might enjoy putting nice groups inside a quarter or even a dime at 100 yards but maybe not many shooters care about this accuracy potential.
I look at accuracy potential in both the firearm and shooter the same way as a carry pistol. It is better to have it and not to need it than to need it and not to have it, including
the skill that needs studying and dedication.

Like they say ... aim small, miss small.

chicken can tell us if he wants this to spray paper dinner plates or he wants something a bit more accurate.

FN makes the barrels for PSA. I had 4 or 5 PSA rifles I built and all were very nice. They were not "sale" rifles as they do that alot. These were full price parts, chrome lined, hammer forged, 4150. Bolts were carpenter 158, chrome lined etc. Infact I had over 1k rounds threw my 14.5" and never cleaned it and it ran flawless. Ask buell how he likes it.

[Meketrefe]

FN makes the barrels for PSA. I had 4 or 5 PSA rifles I built and all were very nice. They were not "sale" rifles as they do that alot. These were full price parts, chrome lined, hammer forged, 4150. Bolts were carpenter 158, chrome lined etc. Infact I had over 1k rounds threw my 14.5" and never cleaned it and it ran flawless. Ask buell how he likes it.

The kits that come with FN shoudl be good. I was referring more to the $400-500 kits. One guy at the other forum, you know, got a kit from PSA with a barrel out of spec. It passed headspaced but the tenon was cut short so it was blowing all the brass (ruined brass), he came to me and got lucky. So this is the thing... if you know exactly what you are getting is nice but otherwise the cheapo kits for the masses can be ok but also can be bad news Jose.
I atrribute this to the fast demand and that the AR market exploded in the last 15 years. some people continue to do it right but so many OEMs out there that is hard to keep track. Even Midway got in trouble with their OEM suppliers and had to do a recall for their stoner bolts that were breaking left and right.
They took care of if as they always do (amazing customer service) but they could have gotten into a lot of trouble should anyone had gotten hurt due to
OEM mill / maker doing that mistake when heat treating the bolts. This is the problem with these makers behind the courtains and their poor QC or total lack of it.
I am sure buell is very happy with his AR. He likes the good stuff too. I know that.