AR15 Rifle - Dancing The Accuracy Tango

[Meketrefe]

The AR15 is an inherently accurate firearm.
No matter what brand, what components most of them are capable of pretty good accuracy in many calibers.
This is proof and testament to Stoner's design with a bolt, group and stock in line with the bore and why also
bolt action tube guns are so accurate and popular.
Often we see out of the box ARs that are capable of amazing accuracy and with consistency in line with accurate
bolt action rifles.
But if one is looking for accuracy and repeatable consistency there are a few simple things one needs to take
into account to increase the chances of getting the right recipe.
Like all recipes the brands of the condiments can change and one can play a little with a personal touch but I think
one must consider some simple points that will help getting the wanted results.
Be ready to invest a bit extra in some key components.

These are some AR accuracy key directives.

- A good barrel and bolt.
Currently we are blessed with many good quality barrels. Some of the barrel makers have been doing this for decades and now they are offering AR barrels many
times with matched bolts to assure both quality and tight fit specially in match barrels. I found Krieger and Lothar Walther to be excellent barrel makers with amazing
bores and precise chambering jobs. Whether the job is done by their custom shop or another shop using their blanks it must be done with the same care as when
chambering accurate bolt action rifles. A self respected gun smith will at least offer a matched bolt to assure a perfect match as we know we have tolerances and
they will be trying to give you the best match both in terms of dimensions and quality of materials as well as making sure everything is perfectly squared.
They normally chamber pointing form the bore so everything is perfectly concentric and true. Other great barrels include lilja, bartlein, rock and shilen match among
a few others. Those makers have great deals and one doesn't have to spend a fortune to make sure the barrels are well made and capable. A great example are ARP
barrels that can produce consistent 1/2MOA accuracy. I have a few of those and one 6.8 in 18" that can challenge any high end bolt rifle any time anywhere. ARP comes
with a nice bolt that we all already know are superior to the average offering out there. The barrel should have a well cut target crown or if threads are needed
avoid 1/2" threads at all cost. Even with the 22 caliber bore there is not enough material to support the bore from swelling towards the end. This will hapeen dinamically
with heat and overtime will swell with pressure and accuracy will suffer. 1/2" threads should have never existed in any caliber.

Lothar Walther LW50 the best polygonal barrels the money can buy and they will build you whatever you want.
They ask for precise dimensions and specs. You have to wait for their custom shop up to 3 or 4 months but they always get it done and get it right.
No mistakes, no excuses, no BS just pure quality... They also have great deals on precut ready to go barrels for popular calibers.


Krieger barrels are among the best barrels out there too. Their 5R rifling is amazing.




ARP barrels great value some with out of this world repeatable accuracy....







Wilson Combat Barrels.
I have inspected them closely and see what they can do. Amazing cuts and very pricise chambering jobs.
Their store offer everything you need for quality ARs.





-Bolt and group.
The most important thing about an AR is the heart of the AR that is having good quality internals. Being a Direct Impingement system this is where the quality and therefore the
budget should concentrate on. We do not need to be spending a fortune for who knows what improvement but also stay away from discount/kit deals with cuts and materials of
questionable origin and reputation. As I said a good maker might offer a bolt to match the barrel and accuracy job. These might come to be squared and true with
a tighter fit. As we fire the firearm everything will loose up a little but we do not want to start with something that is already too lose specially on the breach end.
Good quality extractors and ejectors resistance free are needed for optimal operation.

-Quality trigger.
This is another component of the AR guts that must be of good quality and adjusted to the shooters demand. My preference is a nice two stage trigger with zero creep
and clean, predictable precise break. I set up some to be 1/2lb or less so you can literally break by breathing on them but I do not suggest something like this for
anything tactical and due to liabilities. Here we have many great options. Some rally expensive but not really needed. Lots of tacticool stuff that adds nothing but
dollars to the bill. A simple yet effective 2 stage Geiselle will give us what we want. Even the popular Rock River national match with some tuning will do the same
other triggers costing 3 times will do. make sure the hammer surface is polished and mates well with the carrier to assure proper function w/o disruption. Don't need to go crazy lapping those parts but a bit of attention pays off. Also make sure the springs are the right ones and adjusted. I found many folks with springs crazy tight and interfering with their trigger, hammer and cycling.


-Receivers and brands.
The brands are not important as soon the parts are up to spec and they are just the shell. A brand might mean something but might also mean you spent more for nothing.
however there are some brands that are known to offer good quality billets with pretty tight fits. I found SI defense and Mega to produce very tight fits. I have a few of those.
But I also have great fits with regular DPMS receivers bought from the fulton armory and other places so I think here one has to use good judgement. As I am sure there
are good others but remember paying more for tacticool names and logos with sculls and bones might mean nothing towards accuracy.
One thing that is important aside form a good mating of the recievers is to make sure the upper reciever has a tight fit with the barrel. When mounting the barrel in the upper
receiver it is a great opportunity to square off the receiver. Don't need to go crazy but this along with a tight fit of all part is yet another step towards accuracy.
Also make sure you use a good quality barrel nut and this will also depend on the rails / handguard option that must be a free floating system.


-Gas blocks.
As we know many steel alloys and specially those used to make barrels are hard metals but they are still somewhat flexible and malleable otherwise they will be too brittle.
After trying many options through the years I found that a tight, good quality clamp type gas block can provide a perfect seal of gases yet very easy to install and maintain.
Unlike setscrews and pins the clamp provides even pressure all around and will stay put if properly installed. I like to use stainless ones or same material of the barrel.
Some claim the T6 material can walk and it is true the aluminum dialates at a different rate the steel in barrels but if properly installed with good design and using blue
locktite(always) and even some small pressure washers this will not move. ACE hardware is your best friend for anything needed.
I also like the block with a very tight gas tube fit. We have some great options of clamp blocks from Midwest, Badger and others but I found one maker call BTE in some
models you really have to press hard to get the gas tube in. I also use a minute drop of blue locktite and get zero leaking anywhere. some of BTE cuts provide an adjustable
screw that I replace but a spring loaded one from AC so still can adjust and will not walk, ever. a bit blue locktite will seal too but it is nice to have the spring too so
we know we can use it as intended to finely tune the pressure and timing. I also make sure I get a good fit on the gas key. I have a expander punch to make sure there
is no much gas leaking until the carrier is propelled. Another area that is a concern is the timing of the gas rings on the bolt. Normally I have no issues with this but have
successfully tried coil rings that help mitigate that issue.


-Harguards, tubes and how they work.
One thing you need for an accurate AR is a free float handguard. Here is an area where one has to consider the needs for long term use like potentially use a front sight mounted
on the rail or rail for attachments but where one could be spending a lot for nothing. You see, one of the weakest points of the AR is the section where the threads meat the
upper reciever block. One can find larger beefed up receivers like MEga, LAR, Seekings for example, but even some a bit harder aluminum alloy but in the end there is so much it can be done there because the measures are standard (they have to be) so if one put enough down pressure on a handguard the receiver will flex a little there, no much, but this will translate in barrel movement.
This can be seen when shooting prone in improvised positions like facing a bit downhill and we might be putting more pressure on the guard and bipod than we normally do. some of these
shots in tactical shots result a bit high and the reason why is, probably unknowgnly, too much down force on the rifle.
Monolitic systems mitigate this to some degree or another depending on design but a simple way to reduce this is to choose a handguard with a top rail and then mate the two
rails of the upper reciever to the handguar. NEVER use the optical rail system to do this our you will be interfering with your optics. Use a quality cantilever mount for
your optics (more of that later ) and then a simple coupler or shallow raiser to relieve that tension in case that occurs. This will not fix the problem but will defenetly help reduce that
effect for most people and most uses.
Expensive Brands mean nothing here. Pickup something that works well with a good barrel nut and with a quality cut well vented preferably and save your money for other more worthy
investment.


-Stocks and General Ergonomics
This is an area that is paramount. Adjustments on LOP(length of pull) and comb height (Cheek raisers) are paramount. And this will depend on the individual complexity and choice of
optics but before we go and invest in these two lets work with this simple idea: The rifle and optics configuration has to be flexible and change to fit you and not the other way around.
A good way is to go down on the rifle and find a good position with your eyes closed. Don't fall asleep if you find it too cozy! lol. But really go down sitting and prone in
your living room if you have to and get a feeling for the entire rifle. bring a tape of ruler with you to meausre some parts you might already have like mounts and scopes
just for reference. I find the magpul PRS to be a good value for the money. It is not perfect, it is a tad butt heavy (a plus for me) but it is well made and have some easy
adjustments. Once I have that I find a good mount around 1.2" from the base and then make sure they are strong and solid for a quality scope. If I have irons normally I use for backup
so I most likely go for a folding type on the light side. I do zero and make sure are reasonably functional and accurate up to 200-300 yards. But since the goal for this system
might be extreme accuracy and might involve long shots then the glass is the key. When I mount the optics and before I level the scope (not the wheeler system, it doesn't work) I
try to get as much of the ergonomics right. Grip, controls, stock and then scope position. After I pre-mount the scope w/o torking all the way I close my eyes again find my
cozy positiioin and when I open my eyes the scope clear picture must be there. I will have to adjust the ocular piece, move the mount or the scope and adjust a big cheek raiser
until I feel I can come back to that postion instintively. In the end this doesn't differ much from one rifel to another whether is AR, R700 or other and I gravitate towards the same
tipy of geometrics, and adaptable stocks no matter what rifle. I use the same scopes for the same purposes in many rifles. I mean I use the same model just keep bying the same scopes
and do not play with compromising the zero unless is a rifle I am going to change or retire.


For a lighter rifle I found the mako to give a decent feedback but I do bolt them because a loose stock (It comes with the adjustable feature) doesn't give me
the kind of feedback I want...




The whitley stock offers some nice adjustments and weights for balancing but cheek raising is more complex and will require extra pieces
and/or padding.Whatever the option remember that ones goal is not how pretty it is but how functional it is. And duck tape or hockey tape
are your best friends. Inexpensive and functional. Padding can be done with hobby foam sheets from the hobby store.






-Mounts and optics

(will post separate)




you see is not about little cut outs of cherry picked groups to later post online but knowing that no matter where and how you shoot
you can easily project where the bullet is going to impact and do that over and over again w/o interference. Something that is very
rewarding and nice to have and useful whether you compete or hunt or simply for fun.

The AR can be a very accurate rifle. But if you want to assure accuracy and repeatibility you need to consider a few if not all the directives given above.

100 yards groupings.








Some of the directives are not very different than high power AR builders use when making them and they do use budget parts like the fulton too.
So not everything is about expending a fortune but knowing how to play with the AR legos and how to aim for accuracy.
Many years I have been saying the same things and I was even yelled at for discarding some set screw gas blocks. Now I go to some of those weekend
warrior circles and forums and the same who criticized the methods are now recommending them. In the end there is a clear simple explanation for
things if you follow with close observation and reason.

In the accurate shooter forum Bob whitley explains how he builds some of the match winning Ars. I don't like much the long tubes and I think most of
us like something more compact no longer than 20 or even 22" with a few exceptions. Of course the key ingredient that he has are quality barrels
but there are other factors often overlooked. Also I can explain how I built the Lothar, Krieger and ARP uppers and why they shoot so accurate is in part due
to the nice barrels and bolt combos among other things.

308W on top of mega.




I am continuing here with the rest of the categories....

MORE ON CARRIERS AND BOLTS

As I mentioned above a good carrier group is the heart of the AR. I found many good ones and brands are not that important as soon as the bolts
are good quality and up to spec. 223R. Mil spec bolts are machined out of Carpenter 158 steel and well heat treated should last many thousands of rounds.
Some manufactures are producing the bolts with harder materials like 9310 bolts. This is the same alloy used in some transmission gears and it is very strong.
But like any other alloy it will have to be properly heated and tempered or it can become too brittle so the alloy alone doesn't help w/o proper treatment.

I found several bolts makers to be very good quality like Young Manufacturing.

Young manufacturing is cut with precise tolerances, free of machine marks or burrs and super easy to clean and maintain.
They offer national match combos and also some with the side charging handle for special uppers like those sold by LAR
and fulton armory.



SI Defense produces a bolt made of 9310 steel with a carrier is a softer 8620 steel that is
pretty standard.



Bravo company, CMMG, Colt and others offer good quality bolts made of carpenter 158 steel.

When it comes to alternative calibers there is no mil spec minimum standard and here
one needs to pay more attention to the source and quality of the materials.
Luckily we are blessed with great bolts for the 6.8 as well as the 5.56 courtesy of AR15performance.
These bolts called Superbolts are machined from 9310 steel and are well made, robust and perform flawlessly.




MORE ON GAS BLOCKS
As I mentioned I like the gas blocks to be tight cuts. So the gas tube might not go in loose and will need some pressure and will attach firmly.
You start the tube into position and before it is pinned you move it out a bit before the bleeding hole and put a drop of blue locktite
then slide it in and then you can pin the tube. The lockite might burn out but then there will be enough carbon residue to make up for that space.
One might still see a bit of spot but any bleeding should be minimum. The locktite will not cure all the problems and if a block is too loose fit to
start with. So between a good clamp type and a tight diameter for the tube it will make it as good as it can be. Also make sure the tube is up
to spec the proper length and flared so it will make perfectly and straight in the gas key. Needed-less to say a good carrier will have a perfectly
squared gas key with stacked bolts.

[Meketrefe]

Here a demonstration from Bob Whitley. He is a very good NM and high power shooter and also sells a very good product.

Here we can see bob Whitley shooting his 20 practical cat.
I am not a huge fan of the psychedelic rests and saddles or his choice of handguards but one thing is clear,
bob and those uppers can shoot.

His gas block choice...


More on Gas blocks

We are moving by principal and design and following directives from high end upper builders. These can be applied to more modest budget systems and some end up being be super accurate too.

It would be impossible and pointless for us to measure any variations in bore no matter how hard we torque blocks down and probably the threads will give before any tools break.

The dynamics under firing and extreme heat are pretty different though. I think everyone can agree the clamp provides the best grip and seal with even forces distributed all around
the entire contact surface. We don't need Einstein to explain this simple mechanical concept.


Also any barrel cuts or uneven forces can induce unrecoverable stresses in the barrel. Anything that can induce warping under heat has the potential to swell the bore dimensions. I have
seen some very deep cuts for pins and set screws. We know not everyone is doing this of course. For those looking for extreme accuracy the directives require that barrels
flex the same way and return the same every single time after firing, therefore the requirements call for having everything trued, even, centered and including effective free floating the barrel.

Sometimes unrecoverable stresses that cuts put on the barrels might cause the barrel to flex differently and depending on the heat and cooling time might not return the same way depending how any cuts or other parts in contact react to the cooling. Therefore the importance of the uniformity of contact, materials used, forces and weight of the part in contact with the barrel. Barrels and bores flex and swell so no less amount of consideration should go into any section of the barrel including the tenon end or the crown.

For example, a lot of folks will argue that 1/2" threads are just fine for 223 and in fact many sell expensive match barrels with them but we are also firm on this that 1/2" threads are a bad idea and make decisions here by principle and design, like Harrison's and others offering "smarter" 5/8" threads.

Some folks spend more in one single barrel w/o a bolt than others on the entire upper and will not like to see any sort of fancy cuts or uneven forces applied of any kind. Some high end makers void the warranty on barrels that have been fluted. Those are the ones winning the matches and sticking to some pretty mature directives and designs.

It will be costly to justify sensible choices by the means of proof when motivated by long standing directives, principal and design.

If nothing else when servicing the rifle and swapping barrels the clamp goes always back to a perfect fit and seal being very forgiving.
In other words, they adapt better to differences in dimensions and we have never seen one walk in competition or heavy use with the exception of some aluminum
of questionable design or poorly installed. Aluminum with three screw (never two) and small pressure washers and locktie(always) have never budged.
More times than not, something that is better on paper ends up being better in real application. Many years ago when the AR15 started to quickly ramp up in civilian
sporting use one of the biggest issues at first was the clamp type were too large to properly fit under many rails, even low profile at the bottom, now small ones with
rounded or almost flush bolt heads and hard alloys work just perfectly.

As of today I don't see one single benefit on the set screw vs. a clamp but see a couple of benefits on the clamp aside from all the other considerations that otherwise will be
very costly to measure and prove.

MORE ON STOCK OPTIONS

When the weather clears I will put them side by side and write my impressions aside from the obvious differences.
Others are welcome to participate with their experience...

Luth AR stock.






magpul PRS






Regarding the handguards I think one could go with the most simple design but there is a benefit for a top rail thus something like a utg pro, simple, robust and pretty versatile too.
I think I posted this before but regarding the rigidity in the front the weakest link is in the receiver itself no matter how much money one spends. So given one has a trued and tight
opening for the receiver, perhaps one a bit better quality like mega or SI but not 100% necessary as soon as it is very tight I suggest one can get a small rail raiser section and couple
the lower rail and the tube rail. Never ever do that with the scope mount or rings. this adds a lot of rigidity to the whole unit even when shooting prone downhill that ones tends to
put more pressure on the rifle and pods. The reduction in flex is measurable with a tight coupling piece that can be a very simple and inexpensive solution rendering the whole unit
with monolitic upper type of characteristics but more versatile IMO and way less expensive. I have used a 2" 45 degree rail where I cut the side rail and it is perfect to couple both.
I do not always do this if the rifle is dedicated for the bench or just a beater carbine but for all the others where prone work is on the menu this does makes a difference.
But you are right plain handguards are inexpensive and they are pretty rigid. But try to avoid solid ones and some with even small cuts to allow some air for cooling. The nordic makes a nice thick round tube that can also take a rail section on top or wherever. They are pretty solid and thick unlike some of the super slim ones that for me feel like I am holding a broom with
my huge hands. lol

This is one type I use for coupling. Very low, very light and rigid and the screws are flush so do not need to mate with any slots so perfect for coupling.
If the rail gets in the way of the glass I cut it straight. These are inexpensive units good to have around also for one shot zero/setup with a micro dot or something.

http://www.securityprousa.com/ta2in4...FQmpaQodM6kAcg

[Meketrefe]

A BIT ABOUT BRAKES

If one has a lot of recoil like a 308 and/or shorter/medium barrels one can enjoy some benefits from an efficient brake.
A 24" barrel is going to do a full burn and a brake might not be totally necessary but it will help no doubt, not worthy on a 204, or 223 or some other calibers wiht long heavy barrels.

The key for an efficient brake is to have plenty of bleeding with comon sense patterns. Ideally something that is light, short and effective.
I would consider the standard for military systems consisting in double baffles, wide open and short like those included in high end service rifles.
The badger FTE is easy to install and index w/o the risk of damaging anything.


They also make a micro FTE that is shorter ligther and also very effective but no clamp.




The accuracy international makes a couple with and w/o external threads as needed for suppressed work.



If one is on a budget other similar brakes following the same directives and design will work just the same
like the hollands quick discharge and PRI those with 3 baffles...








For a super light and easy to clean brake the ACC single baffle micro brake will offer a decent recoil reduction and
less weight that has the potential of less interference with accuracy unlike long heavy brakes with questionable bleeding patterns.




Also for budget friendly options the JP with two baffles will work beautifully based on the same principals.




I have tested and fabricated dozens of designs and in the end the conclusion is the same. Stick to the time tested simple
designs and away from long, heavy brakes with exotic patterns and long narrow passages for the bullet.

I was told the other day the ARP shorty brake does a decent job and also offers the added benefit of being blush with the barrel therefore
easy to service the rifles for those living in the states with stupid regulations where one needs to pin them to the barrels...
I have not tried these yet but I want to also because they are light and small. So these are some nice added benefits for those looking for a brake.

http://ar15performance.com/muzzle_devices
http://pg.b5z.net/get/mb5z/s240-*/zi...pr_504x346.jpg


So perhaps the wide JP must be one of the most efficient designs but I don't see a lot of people using them, probably because they are so ugly for a rifle.



So the others are like the ones I posted, a couple of wide baffles (or three, never more) as shorter and lighter as one can make them with plenty
of bleeding and effective pattern. Also I have discovered that when brakes are long and with long narrow passages for the caliber, sometimes with
exotic patterns w/o a logical explanation other than aledged tacticoolness, those can be detrimental to accuracy. Three major factors are the added weight
at the muzzle, the long passages when too narrow also the potential for some minor run out to interfere that otherwise could be discarded.
It is hard to explain but I think it has to do with the way the pressure wave that follows the bullet in a supersonic projectile. If the wall is too close even
w/o touching then groups start to degrade but it is hard to determine how much is due to this and how much due to the impact in harmonics thus
another reason to make a brake shorter, lighter yet efficient. Titanium can be a great material for a small wide brake but not 100% necessary.

there are small improvements in modern times but the design directives continue to be the same as 100 years ago. Single wide fable typical application.

[Cgrutt]

Too late to get through all that but it seems like an Awesome post. Thanks!

[Meketrefe]

Thanks.

I was thinking about creating a quick table (check point style) and with your help summarize several of the opportunities to build an accurate AR or to help improve an existing one.

FROM BACK OF THE RIFLE TO FRONT...

(Just outline for now).

-Stock
-Buffer system?
-Matched (or bedded) billets / receivers
-Grip
-Trigger group
-Bolt (to match barrel/chamber).
-Barrel and Chambering
-Truing the receiver
-Tube/Free float options
-Gas blocks
-Muzzle options

-Optic/mount...proper mounting in regards to eye relief, torque and cant
-Muzzle devices and how they can effect accuracy
-Mass of moving parts..light vs heavy and the effects on accuracy
-Maybe an overview of the complete system, rifle, optic, ammo, shooter as a grande finale


-receiver fitment,
-FCG assembly,
-barrel nut.


What else are we missing?

[Cgrutt]

Clips?


/jk

Don't shoot me...



Let's start up an AR section and you can put the systems/components as subsections. Maybe generate some interest. I'll post up some thoughts this weekend.

[24Pink14Stink]

Wow. Comprehensive, well written and super helpful.

Thanks Meke!

[Meketrefe]

Thanks guys.
Here something about grips for those who can use them in communist NY or outside NY.

Ergonimics need to feel right to the shooter, including grips.

I think it is also important to consider the grip or even a extra support for the palm and/or trigger finger. This gives a lot more control and feedback.
Perhaps one of the best ones I have seen (even less money than many others) was this simple UTG that has substantial swell at the base of the index finger...
My hands are large so I have tried dozens of grips. this is one that fits my hand very well and it seem well made and with positive rubbery like grip.
What that buldge does is that supports the base of the index finger so depending on the hands the trigger falls perfectly on the pad of the finger w/o altering a good grip. I guess the best approach is for everyone to try different types and see what fits and feels better.



The MOE is another grip I like...




Regarding the triggers I think the biggest problem I see consistently is that the triggers are not well installed. Same with scopes and rings.
It doesn't mean that they do not work but they are not installed to be precise, that is my point.

One typical problem is that the hammer spring is often too hard, too much pressure and therefore excessive momentum along whit a potentially stiffer
trigger and more creep, and also some potential jerking when the hammer moves and hits the firing pin with excessive tension and speed.
Sometimes they even contribute to harder cycling when carriers fight with the hammer due to the fit not being the best when they engage
moving backwards. These things can be improved by simply reducing the spring tension and making sure the carrier has a good start contacting
the hammer that might require some smoothing and polishing. Also the trigger spring might need a bit conditioning as well as the parts but
rarely lapping. It boils down to understanding the mechanism and to making sure the trigger is smooth, predictable and with a fast decent
break but w/o too much tension or momentum. I don't like the integral triggers because the 2 stage Giselle and even the 2 stage RRA give
me endless options for customization with aftermarket springs and following the guidelines above. Nothing else is needed really. Those more
expensive trigger groups, setups and lockup pins people might like but not really needed.

Regarding the shooting discipline is very hard to say but a few things are more important that some training and studying. A lot of things are really variable and I am not the best teacher myself.
My first suggestion is always to watch the shooter first to see what they do and also help them with sometimes simple yet very fundamental things like posture, the scope and mount
setup or the trigger. That is why I think a one on one session with an experience instructor is the best money one could ever spend and often overlooked. Even experienced shooters
have someone sharing tips and ideas and might record themselves to see if they see anything that can be changed or improved.

I think above all things I suggest the first thing is everyone needs to really understand their rifle to the T. , both mechanically, sights, optics and in motion as a ballistics tool including the loads.
I think we should think about rifles not just as tools but as an extension of our bodies and minds. So yes they are tools but they can also be seen as instruments of precision.

Then it comes the external ballistics that is not for everyone but I don't think it hurts to know and challenge oneself a little to learn even if you are just the average hunter.

I think there are two type of shooters. One who shoots and sees the shot and then adjusts (or not LOL) . Then the other shoots and sees the shot and wonders why did that happened. Then he/she learns more and then adjusts but always considering the learning and what to expect after that adjustment. The same applies when we reload and want to optimize. So precission shooting is 1/2 of the time preparing, studying and doing the right preparations and the other 1/2 of the time practicing but being rigorous about how, what we see, applies to our leanings.

I think that challenge is what makes this discipline a bit more interesting rather than just making hits. Also when we say precision shooting we might not be talking about 1/4 moa score shooting but maybe something more practical in real life like securing solid hits consistently no matter what distance, weather or shooting conditions.

I think this last idea captures the essence of true marksmanship.

[big flash]

Meke - I have been seeing a huge trend in the free world of the US of posting these beautiful SBR builds with really nice quality glass on them. I keep thinking, man is this shorty really that accurate that it warrants such nice optics? Are people really getting any accuracy out of something like a 11.5" barrel? Seems to me it more for looks than anything, as it doesn't seem that practical to me.

most excellent post by the way, i love it!

edit: only asking because I don't think you talked about barrel lengths here though I remember you had good opinions on them in the past. thanks!

[Meketrefe]

ARs hold their ground against top bolt rifles in practical/tactical open matches. This is a fact.
Very short barrels are a new trend, most time useless internet/tacticool fashion. I guess some like to go shorter than 16" like special operations folks but not too much shorter. When you go too short like many tacticool BS we see online, you might loose substantial speed and when you loose significant speed there is more time for the bullet in the air to a target. This translates into longer time the bullet is exposed to drop and wind. Also a short carbine might be "too light" and therefore harder to hold steady on target. People with sights might have a much shorter radius.
So yes, by design, a firearm that is way too short, has an impact in accuracy, with a few justified exceptions perhaps.

[big flash]

thanks, always appreciate your input on such things

[WARFAB]

My understanding is shorter rifles also have more reliability issues. Overall I've never really understood the in SBRs and AR pistols.

Maybe that's just because I've never shot one.

[Meketrefe]

My understanding is shorter rifles also have more reliability issues. Overall I've never really understood the in SBRs and AR pistols.

Maybe that's just because I've never shot one.

The problem started with the 16" M4 carbines. The porting was designed too far from the muzzle to accommodate the grenade launcher mount/bracket.
This with the considerable pressure means that minute variations in port size led to carbines running with extra pressure and hotter. This doesn't happen
with the mid port for 16" and longer barrels and the carbine porting should have never existed in the first place. It was a design mistake and people continue
to buy them including M4 tacticool barrel profile with slot cuts that serve no purpose other than weakening the barrel and specially when other options are available.
A 14" barrel, still hot but it runs better timing wise than the 16" carbine. For anything shorter people need to consider pistol calibers or rifle calibers that
can take light bullets and super fast powders. Fast powders give peek pressure much sooner so the ports can be moved close to the breech and/or opened
up to assure reliable operation. The best thing is to use dedicated systems so if one is shooting a specific caliber have the port match the ideal spot
and diameter for reliable operation. If one is considering switching to subsonic perhaps a double gas block (2 gas blocks stacked and adjustable) is the
most reliable solution. But we see people selling them with whatever they come up with w/o a good criteria and then selling them as el cheapo parts
kits for the masses. People who really need something reliable they will go to a reputable company and consider their battle tested equipment.
For everyone else just avoid the carbine or have one with someone who knows how to make them well. Also consider medium profile barrels and 5/8 threads
or no threads vs the 1/2 threads that also should have never existed.
This doesn't mean that carbines might not work but I think I explained the obvious benefits in the earlier posts.

[Chicken Shoot]

Meketreffeffeeffeeffefe ... I have ALWAYS wanted to build a AR that was for precision. I'm hearing conflicting reports on whether or not to go with a 20" barrel or a 16" barrel. My ideal build would be 100% A2 styling with iron sight and the carry handle on the top of the receiver. I don't like scopes. but I suppose I could go that route if need be. What would you suggest for a poor ass Chicken like myself as far as complete uppers that would fit my style? I don't want any adjustable rear stock. I hate those damn things. I don't think I'd want any rails on the front guards either. I had an anniversary edition Bushmaster XM15E2S back in the day and it was exactly what I wanted ... the problem was it was nickel plated and highly engraved and not a gun to be shot much so I sold it for $500 more than I paid for it not even a year later to a collector. (1 of 50 made) I really want the gun I was planning on building prior to the damn POS UNSAFE Act. Any help would be appreciated. Oh ... as for lower kits, any that are kind of budget minded that are actually decent? Trigger work is something I'm no stranger to so, I can probably make due with what is offered in the kits.

[GUNSICK]

CS the best LPK I have used are CMMG. The trigger is superb compared to any other Mil spec ones I have ever used.