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Are AR-15 Lower Receivers Actually Firearms?

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  • Are AR-15 Lower Receivers Actually Firearms?

    Have we already been over this in New Yorkistan? Does NY have its own legal definition of what constitutes a firearm receiver that doesn't rely on referencing federal law?

    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...rious-trouble/

    Nicolaysen argued that the definition of a receiver under the relevant federal code differed in various ways from the AR-15 component Roh was accused of manufacturing.

    Under the US Code of Federal Regulations, a firearm frame or receiver is defined as: “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.” (emphasis added)

    The lower receiver in Roh’s case does not have a bolt or breechblock and is not threaded to receive the barrel, Nicolaysen noted.
    Seems like this would have a direct impact on Letitia James's attempt to bully "ghost gun" retailers into not shipping to New York. If a few retailers decided to take her to court using the defense that AR lowers aren't firearms at all.... with 80% lowers being even less so.... Ms. James's overreach could end up causing the feds some serious headaches.

    Sources familiar with the agreement said prosecutors wanted to strike a deal in order to prevent Selna’s order from becoming permanent, drawing publicity, and creating case law that could hamper ATF enforcement efforts.
    They basically let Roh walk in order to preserve the current fiction under which the ATF regulates AR-15 sales.

    As for “drawing publicity,” CNN has done a good job of that with their story. And, as Glover points out, Roh’s case wasn’t the first time a similar argument had been successfully used.
    Federal law enforcement officials — and members of Congress — have been on notice about a potential problem with the language in federal gun law as applied to AR-15s since at least 2016.

    In July of that year, prosecutors in Northern California abandoned a case against a convicted felon named Alejandro Jimenez after a judge found that the AR-15 lower receiver he was accused of purchasing in an ATF undercover sting did not meet the definition of a receiver under the law.
    So they didn't want publicity...... and CNN broke the story. Did CNN just do gun owners a big favor, or is this going to turn into a fiasco that ends up working against gun owners?

    The only way to fix this is through new legislation. Congress alone can change federal law to define a frame or receiver in such a way that AR-15 rifles are covered. That’s why Attorney General Lynch wrote the letter she did back in 2016, suggesting a legislative fix. But Congress apparently shrugged that off.
    Unfortunately the ATF had demonstrated that it will rewrite rules on its own without waiting for legislation.
    https://psynq.com/

    Praying things get better.

  • #2
    From the original CNN article:

    Adopting the defense position, the prosecutors wrote, would be "manifestly incompatible" with the intent of the federal Gun Control Act and would "severely frustrate" enforcement of the law.
    The prosecutors' filing said a ruling in favor of the defense could impact the receivers for up to 90% of the firearms in America.
    "The necessary result of this would be that the unregulated parts could be manufactured, sold, and combined with other commercially available parts to create completed, un-serialized firearms which would not be subject to background checks, and which would be untraceable," the prosecutors wrote. "Defendant's interpretation would mean that nearly every semi-automatic firearm could be purchased piece by piece with no regulation or background check before a prohibited person would have a firearm."
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/us/ar...nvs/index.html

    The implications beyond just AR-15s hadn't occurred to me. Most semi-auto pistols frames would fail to meet the definition of a firearms as well. The new trend of putting a serialized chassis inside a polymer pistol frame really creates an exception as well. The serialized chassis doesn't meet the definition of a firearm receiver in any way.
    https://psynq.com/

    Praying things get better.

    Comment


    • #3
      I saw this article the other day, and for some reason I'm completely lacking the mental aptitude to actually understand what it's saying.
      Old enough to know better, still too young to care

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by camper4lyfe View Post
        I saw this article the other day, and for some reason I'm completely lacking the mental aptitude to actually understand what it's saying.
        The government/ATF regulates firearm "receivers". The receiver is required to have a serial number and you need to pass a background check to purchase one. An AR-15 lower receiver does not meet the federal definition of a firearm receiver despite the ATF treating them as receivers for the past 50 years.

        Summary: Government charges citizen for illegally manufacturing and selling firearm receivers. Lawyer points out that what he manufactured and sold doesn't fit the legal definition of a firearm receiver. Government says let's just pretend this never happened.

        https://psynq.com/

        Praying things get better.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by WARFAB View Post

          The government/ATF regulates firearm "receivers". The receiver is required to have a serial number and you need to pass a background check to purchase one. An AR-15 lower receiver does not meet the federal definition of a firearm receiver despite the ATF treating them as receivers for the past 50 years.

          Summary: Government charges citizen for illegally manufacturing and selling firearm receivers. Lawyer points out that what he manufactured and sold doesn't fit the legal definition of a firearm receiver. Government says let's just pretend this never happened.
          I sort of got that part. Does this end up being a good thing or a bad thing I guess is where I'm really struggling. Obviously the government ignoring it is irritating, but, how does it play out one way or another?
          Old enough to know better, still too young to care

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by camper4lyfe View Post
            Does this end up being a good thing or a bad thing I guess is where I'm really struggling.
            Not entirely sure. If this case had been allowed to set precedent, then it seems like nobody would need a background check to buy a 100% lower until there was a legislative change. Maybe?

            It is unknown how many pending cases would be impacted by such a ruling, or how many past cases would get appealed because of it.

            Exactly how the legislative fix for this situation would change things nobody really knows. It could make things worse. They might just end up allowing the ATF to continue unconstitutionally interpreting things as they see fit.

            https://psynq.com/

            Praying things get better.

            Comment


            • #7
              If things get ugly I would imagine Fed's would do exactly what they just did with bump stocks: The bureaucrats simply reinterpret their current "official interpretation" of the regulation and suddenly the "law" is enforced differently.
              Beer is like porn, you can buy it but it's more fun to make your own

              I have to bend over too far

              I get a boner.

              bareback every couple of days, GTG. Bareback, brokeback, same $hit!

              I joined a support group to help me deal with my social anxiety but I just can't seem to work up the nerve to go to a meeting......

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by WARFAB View Post

                The government/ATF regulates firearm "receivers". The receiver is required to have a serial number and you need to pass a background check to purchase one. An AR-15 lower receiver does not meet the federal definition of a firearm receiver despite the ATF treating them as receivers for the past 50 years.

                Summary: Government charges citizen for illegally manufacturing and selling firearm receivers. Lawyer points out that what he manufactured and sold doesn't fit the legal definition of a firearm receiver. Government says let's just pretend this never happened.
                If you have a 2A "right", how would this apply ..??
                sic semper boogaloo

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Norm DeGuerre View Post
                  If you have a 2A "right", how would this apply ..??
                  Depending on how this plays out, there's a chance it might not apply at all.
                  https://psynq.com/

                  Praying things get better.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Norm DeGuerre View Post

                    If you have a 2A "right", how would this apply ..??
                    Because some folks have forfeited their rights by virtue of being a convicted felon?
                    Beer is like porn, you can buy it but it's more fun to make your own

                    I have to bend over too far

                    I get a boner.

                    bareback every couple of days, GTG. Bareback, brokeback, same $hit!

                    I joined a support group to help me deal with my social anxiety but I just can't seem to work up the nerve to go to a meeting......

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by camper4lyfe View Post
                      I saw this article the other day, and for some reason I'm completely lacking the mental aptitude to actually understand what it's saying.
                      The best way I could interpret this case... Is that the .Gov knows what they're doing is essentially unconstitutional, but are doing everything they can possibly do to avoid this case going to trial so they can keep on keeping on with their unconstitutional behavior.
                      Sticky Lips at High Noon!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dwa12479 View Post
                        The best way I could interpret this case... Is that the .Gov knows what they're doing is essentially unconstitutional, but are doing everything they can possibly do to avoid this case going to trial so they can keep on keeping on with their unconstitutional behavior.
                        Unconstitutionality in regards to the 2A isn't really at play in this case as far as I can tell.

                        I think what the ATF has been doing is mainly just illegal.... or lacks legislative justification.... if one can split a hair like that.

                        It's unconstitutional because it's a law being enforced that has no legislative backing. So basically the ATF just made up a law as they saw fit to do.... which is unconstitutional because only the legislative branch can create laws..... but the vast majority of the laws and regulations created every year are written by unelected bureaucrats instead of Congress anyways sooooo....... ?

                        This case is interesting because government departments are typically given lots of leeway in how they interpret and enforce the laws under their purview through Auer Deference. So I'm not sure why Eugene's design is creating such a stumbling block. I think laws should be specific and giving agencies like the ATF lots of wiggle room in how they interpret laws is a mistake, so I'm happy to hear it's a stumbling block, but I'm not sure why.

                        In this case it's apparently a big enough issue that the government's own prosecutors backed down and gave the defendant a sweetheart deal. I doubt they would have done so if they thought they could push the Auer Deference angle.
                        Last edited by WARFAB; 10-15-2019, 01:55 PM.
                        https://psynq.com/

                        Praying things get better.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It appears that word is spreading throughout the legal community.

                          https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/more-defense-attorneys-arguing-ar-15-lowers-arent-firearms-and-theyre-winning/

                          The case rested on the ATF’s claim that the components were legally firearms. Judge James Carr called that a “plainly erroneous” reading of the law and said the agency has a duty to fix the problem.

                          “Misapplying the law for a long time provides no immunity from scrutiny,” Carr wrote in his order to dismiss.

                          Federal prosecutors in Rowold’s case and several others declined to comment. An ATF spokeswoman would not answer questions posed by The Associated Press but said the agency is “keenly assessing” Carr’s decision.


                          In one case, an ATF expert testified that the same principle could apply to many other firearms. Prosecutors worry that more rulings against the government could allow people prohibited from having guns to purchase weapons piece by piece with no regulation or background check.

                          Franklin Zimring, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley School of Law, is skeptical of that claim and said the same behavior could often be prosecuted under state laws.


                          Anyone know whether a lower receiver fits the definition of a firearm according to New York State law?
                          https://psynq.com/

                          Praying things get better.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This is receiving some attention in the MSM recently.....Associated Press article.

                            "A subtle design feature of the AR-15 rifle has raised a technical legal question that is derailing cases against people who are charged with illegally buying and selling the gun’s parts or building the weapon."

                            Funny how they point out the popularity of this firearms when it suits their purpose but downplay it when it comes to Heller and "firearms in common use".

                            "At issue is whether a key piece of one of America’s most popular firearms meets the definition of a gun that prosecutors have long relied on."

                            Also: 17 million in circulation and they can only point out 3 instances where they were implicated in a "mass shooting" event?

                            "The gun industry estimates there are more than 17 million AR-15-style rifles in circulation, and the National Rifle Association once dubbed it “America’s rifle.” AR-15-style weapons were used in attacks in Newtown, Connecticut, Las Vegas and Parkland, Florida."


                            https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/...popular-rifle/
                            Last edited by thughes; 01-14-2020, 09:01 AM.
                            Beer is like porn, you can buy it but it's more fun to make your own

                            I have to bend over too far

                            I get a boner.

                            bareback every couple of days, GTG. Bareback, brokeback, same $hit!

                            I joined a support group to help me deal with my social anxiety but I just can't seem to work up the nerve to go to a meeting......

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If I recall correctly NYS law isnt consistent within itself in regards to firearms eg penal law vs environmental. Oh and try to find clarification on what is in compliance and what is not lol...clear as mud!

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