Supply, demand, and collectable value.....

[thughes]

So it's time for a Friday morning rant. Let me grab a cup of coffee and I'll be right back.....

[thughes]

All right, I'm back.

I want to address my thoughts on the subject of collector guns. Too often I am saddened to see a historic firearm modified in a way that cannot be "undone" at a later date. I know the common argument: "It's a cheap milsurp, they made millions of them and the market is flooded right now. Chopping one up for a sporter is no big deal". OK, so this may be true....in your case. But then another guy does the same thing, then another, etc. Next thing you know, the market is no longer saturated and unaltered specimens are becoming difficult to find. Original examples are soon fetching a premium. Political climates change, imports cease or are banned, supplies dry up, etc.

Remember the $79 Mosins of a year or 2 ago? Try finding a nice original 91/30 one for less than $150 now.
SKS's were $99 a few years ago, now the most beat up Chinese "B" grades start at $300.
You could get an M1 Garand not so long ago for $200, now the field grades start at $700 and I haven't seen one at a gun show for less than $1000

Another puzzle to me: After cutting/chopping/ and tacti-kewling one of these beautiful guns, why does the offending party feel that it should command a premium price over an unadulterated original? The value is contingent on collectability (which is destroyed). I see the same thing in the motorcycle world. I'm active in a community trying to preserve iron head Sportsters. For years guys hacked up old Sportsters and turned them into rigid framed "kewl" choppers and other abominations. The reasoning given is that they were cheap, plentiful, and "real" bikers didn't want one of those girl bikes anyway. "It's mine and I can do whatever I want to it" True, but you would not believe the $$ an original condition iron head Sporty commands these days......go price out a vintage 60's era original condition XLCH.

Another factor (at least for me) is that many of the guns are true "ghost" guns. They have battle scars, they were used during conflict, enemy combatants were killed with them, there is blood, death, and destruction tied to them. There are stories too, stories of how they may have saved lives, preserved liberty, deposed tyrants, or allowed their owner to get home safely after some war in a far off place, long ago.

Enough for now I guess, coffee is cold and it's time to get to work. Thanks for allowing me to vent, flame away!

[thughes]

For current collector prices and market value on these old girls, check out the gun stock market:

http://www.georgestragand.com/gunstockmarket/index.php

[24Pink14Stink]

Haha! Wonder what sparked this?

I think your commentary is spot on though. Well said.

[dwa12479]

Wow, someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning...... lol.

I agree 100% about those who hack them up and then want more $$. I think in their mind that it's now a custom made, one of kind firearm that should fetch a premium. When really it's nothing more than a gobbed up kitchen gunsmith eyesore.

I often wonder when I take my Mosin out who it was originally issued to, how many men it may have killed, where each of the nicks and scrapes came from.

[Pissed Off Patriot]

I've said it before as well on other places, so you are not alone.

This applies to anything in the antique or collectible world, not just guns. Any time you mess with an original finish, you can pretty much knock a minimum of 50% off the collector value.

[Norm DeGuerre]

I'm active in a community trying to preserve iron head Sportsters. For years guys hacked up old Sportsters

We need to talk ..!!

[phritz]

I guess you would love my 1932 Tula Mosin, but hate my "1975" Ironhead. However, when I bought the bike, it was already a 75 motor in a 79 frame with parts from all over.

[thughes]

I've got a 79. Repainted it and put a fat tank on it before I wised up, was smart enough to keep all the original parts to put her back right (one of these days). I was also smart enough to resist drags and keep the stock siamese exhaust. I've got some pics of her in OEM condition but can't find them right now.

[Cgrutt]

[Robin'son]

Many years ago A friends father was a gunsmith and practically made a living turning 03's and Mauser's into sporter's. They made their way using their own lights and I don't fault them for that, but I agree thughes, it's a huge loss in the greater scheme of things. Sure wish I could find one of those 8mm Hakim's, hell, are they even legal anymore? FUACUPOS!
Robin

[Norm DeGuerre]

I've got a 79.

that's a GIRLS bike ...

anyways, I need an original seat, instruments, bars, controls for my '69

[Meketrefe]

I am not into collection guns other that a few shotguns and a few others but I can appreciate their value as original as possible as you well said.
I see butchered guns all the time and my initial feeling is of sadness but one has to also understand the circumstances around this and when this was done.
I think today there might be an exception to modify a gun just for a curiosity or to really do something totally unique but the driver should not be to come up with
something by using a cheapest possible baseline.

Most of the good surplus is gone, specially WWII and prior eras. But there was a time where surplus was so abundant and so cheap that people bought rifles
by the crate and of course some of those were modified w/o giving too much though. At the time they were plentiful, cheap and nothing exclusive at all.

Perhaps the most common modification was to cut barrels and sporterize to a degree or another as many service man like to use their rifles for all day carry
and harvesting meat.
But then the years passed and those started to be seen good as they were all original and reserved to use as original intended (CMP spirit) then and old
service rifle was not going to be the first choice for the hunt with the factories now back producing nice new designs and light models for hunting, defense and
or other sports.

But I think today it would be inconceivable for someone to take a perfectly good rifle, sometimes with history and character marks, and have it butchered
just for the sake of it.

Like you mentioned with vintage cars and motorcycles is the same. If you change one thing that is irreversible it will loose its collection value.
Same thing with musical instruments, vintage forniture and so many other things.

If one wants to make a tacticool project there are plenty of ways to build affordable projects on modern popular actions with a lot more possibilities
and aftermarket than any surplus rifle can provide.

Today using a surplus baseline to be "enhanced" is not even the most affordable way for those who do not have financial means so any butchering will be
hardly justifiable under any circumstances. But also some of the people doing that might not be the smartest people in the world neither so I think sadly
some might continue doing it. And the sad part is that among them will find other person willing to buy anything. IMO I think that one literally could wrap
up a PePeshittata in gift paper and sell it to one of those goons.

[jonboy 69]

my favorite, electro penned SSA numbers.

[harleyhutch]

I like them original too, but as it's been said before, they were a tool back in the day, AND they weren't collectable, just affordable. One of my most prized rifles that I will hunt with till I can no longer hunt is an old Winchester 1895 in 30-40 Krag, sporterized when it came out of a crate in Gloversville NY, yes I was able to trace it back that far. My wife's Grandfather came home from the war and made his living hunting, fishing and guiding in the Adirondacks before and after the war but didn't get this one till then. That gun means more to me than the pre 64 Winchesters that are 90% or better that I own, cut down or not. I show up at hunting camp and the youngsters whisper, "what's that thing the old guy is carrying"? I let them go for a while and eventually show it to them and what caliber it is. Then they usually reply, never seen one or heard of it, why not carry a 30-06? I ask if they know where the 30-06 came from and the reply is a 30-06, it didn't come from anywhere, it's always been a 30-06. The other thing I tell them that it is my new rifle, then show up with an Winchester 1886 in .33 cal (1901), then they look really confused, carry an M1 Tanker too (anyone remember the Navy Garands?, they didn't want to stock 30-06 ammo since they already had .308 on hand, so they converted them), mine is a later Springfield that can always be changed back. It's too bad their interests don't fall back into history and there are better, MUCH BETTER things than a black finish sprayed on metal and thrown in a plastic stock. But it's better, all weather, handles better, HOG WASH, most of these guys run for camp or don't show up when the weather turns bad or cold or both. Enough of my rambling, if your lucky enough to get an old original, safe guard it with your life, treasure it and educate the youth of it's importance as it is, don't try to make it better.
Out on a limb on this one, if you like Garands, Check out Tim Shufflin, he modifies Garands into Mini-G, nothing that can't be reversed and actually saves old barrels by shortening them and re-crowning, don't like it, put the original back on, also does original parkerizing, remember the majority have been arsenal rebuilt and finished.