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300 winmag alternative for long range

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  • 300 winmag alternative for long range

    These subjects and type of threads are very popular in other forums while in NYF nobody really cared much about wilcats,
    ballistics, or anything related to shooting for that matter.

    I am a huge fun of the 308 bore. I have been shooting the 308W and winmag for many years and I cannot get enough of it.

    I tried larger and small bores and like them too for several purposes but for a do it all, do it pretty well always come back to the
    308 and that includes also shooting within a reasonable budget.

    I know what you are thinking, if you are shooting the winmag what else could possibly be needed but let me tell you ocassionally
    you will reach for the heaviest bullets your case can launch at decent speeds and wheter is for an moose hunt using a long shot
    or just to see if you can hit some target very far away you want grain.

    Of course is not just the grain alone but some decent ballistics that can take that grain to some distance and still retain the velocity
    to do whatever needs to be done. In case of game you want to stay withing the minimum recommended by the manufacturer and
    if you can maybe look for a softer bullet depending on the game and weight.

    The win-mag might be overkill for many situations but at the other hand if one gets comfortable with it one might find surprising how
    versatile it can be. With all that said the winmag suffers from a little problem that might not be well known but that it definitely can impact
    its performance.

    Before you jump into the RUM and 300-378 or any other crazy alternative please hear me out. Those are clearly overbored, also suffer
    from case design problems and or they require very expensive equipment that is hard to justify.

    The winmag might not be perfect but it is super popular and unlike conventional thinking it can be very accurate for a belted magnum just
    like the 7rem mag and several others.

    The issue is that if I take the best bullets that the 308 department has to offer then the winmag falls a tad short literally. Not by much but the long
    case with short neck and the imposed max COAL by the longest magazines makes one wonders if there is an easy popular upgrade
    without going with exotic options and w/o overboring.

    These are the options I have been considering for re-barreling a heavy rifle.

    Initially I though about the popular WSM reamed to work in a long action using one of the extra free bore match reamers. It makes sort of a 6mm
    norma BR in 308 version and on steroids. I looked at the data and ran the nrs. in quick load and found no benefit in spreads and reach. I needed more powder.




    The next I looked at what is a very popular wildcat that is the 300/375.
    Here is the 1st from the left. This is nothing more than a ruger 375 case necked down to 30 caliber.
    pic courtesy form nz.hunting friends and forum.



    This follows the right directives and I would not be surprised for this to become a successfully commercial version but
    I don't want to deal with wildcats for this and also I don't think the 375 ruger takes maximum advantage.

    You see, here is the catch...

    Ruger and Hornady made a very wise move offering a sensible yet powerful rimless straight case option that works
    on popular actions like rem 700, savage 10/11 and mauser actions among others w/o requiring extended actions,
    and custom and expensive cuts for the action. Also uses a rim size of .534 that is the popular bolt face for many magnums
    belted and straight. But since the appearance of the WSM and RUM line among others one wonders why not to go
    with a slightly rebated rim and wider base/case that will further add to the capacity like the case with all the derivates
    from the 404 Jeffry and beyond.

    So one starts thinking like what about a cartrige that is a tad shorter than the winchester magnum with a more reasonable
    neck, with the full .550 diameter at the base vs. the .534 of the 375 ruger but yet it provides a rebated rim of .534?
    Many have gone the route of pushing back a RUM for the purpose of using the best and longest bullets and w/o running
    over the ogive. One might also think why not use a 300 norma magnum or 338 lapua magnum and neck this down but
    then again those use special bolts, are very expensive and will end up super overbored. Plus those work great for what
    they do that is in the 338 department.

    So going back to the RUM one would think why not to push those back and get some more efficient case that will also allow
    the use of the best bullets? Well, the answer is that this was already done in the year 2010 in response to the 375 saturday
    night fever and success. They called the shorter RUM the RAM line for (Remington American magnum).

    .300 Remington American Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But then if you really look at the design closely one arrives to the conclusion that an improved case of these characteristics
    is nothing more than the nice yet exclusive 300 Dakota. I actually took some of the cases I have from collection and from shooting
    with other people and compared to the advertised RAM and gave me something very similar in practical terms.

    300 RAM (Shortened and improved 300 RUM)
    .404 Jeffery
    Rimless, bottleneck
    .308 in (7.8 mm)
    .344 in (8.7 mm)
    .525 in (13.3 mm)
    .550 in (14.0 mm)
    .535 in (13.6 mm)
    .050 in (1.3 mm)
    2.580 in (65.5 mm)
    3.340 in (84.8 mm)
    105 gr H2O (6.8 cm3)
    1-10"
    Large rifle magnum
    65,000 psi (450 MPa)
    And this is the 300 Dakota...



    300 Dakota next to a "skinny" 30.06.



    But if you noticed the Dakota cases have actually a tad larger rim. Don't ask me why but they require a special bolt and custom actions
    from Dakota rifles or you have to machine one. Or you can actually chamber the rifle to work with the standard magnum rim and then forget
    about the Dakota ammunition that it is not that affordable nor exactly the objective.

    So after much research on the subject I am left with the dilemma. I don't find a cartrige that is 100% what I want. This happens to many people
    and probably the reason they end up reaming a variant or wildcat for their F-class competitions, long range hunting or whatever they do with them.
    Also the 300 winmag performs so well in a wide range of applications that one feels it can do anything. But when exposed to the best bullets
    then the obvious issues show up. At least berger bullets have created a tactical 308 bullet in 230gr that is not as nice as their top 230gr
    hybrid but it works well in the longest magnums that otherwise will run out past max COAL before a bullet can be properly seated.

    Also I got some of these hoochie mommas below to try and for this a specialized caliber with plenty free-bore is the ticket. However I need
    to step down to 1:8 twist that was already in the plans anyway. That is the price you pay for shooting some of the solids / CNC cut that are much longer
    than the lead filled counter parts.

    Type: Solid copper hybrid profile.
    Grains: 197
    Ballistic Coefficient G1 of 0.827




    So I have not decided yet. This is a long process for me that might take months and probably try some other rifles.

    Do you guys have any input, ideas, suggestions???

    Don't start going nuts with BMGs, cheytacs, LM and others alike. I have been there and I want to keep this more simple and in the 308 department.
    Last edited by usmcveteran; 11-09-2014, 01:33 PM.
    It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

  • #2
    Some might wonder why not the RUM? or even the necked down 338 lapua or norma magnum (338 case)?
    It is not so much the energy at the muzzle with popular bullets but also the energy downrange and specially retained speed if you want to pop a large animal (very rarely but it happens) or if you want to hit some heavy steel with authority. the 7mm is fine and the 6.5mm is popular but it falls short. Actually if you look at the popular 6.5-284 you will see how the original 284 can do more with the same budget and w/o burning the barrels so quickly. But at the moment I am concentrating on the 308 department. I am looking for the 2900-3000fps with 230gr medicine. That w/o a break would be total punishment !! lol. Transsonic range 1 mile obviously depending

    on bullet choice, barometric pressure and weather and such.
    the 300 378 is overbored as it is the RUM. I need a bit shorter case so I can use the best bullets and that is why the 404 J. baseline w/o going into the wider cases like the massive 416 rigby that is also used by the lapua magnum but that require special actions and bolts and the whole nine yards and then it is too much anyway.

    the dakota or something in those lines starting to look pretty good. to me the missing link is something like a WSM in longer version for a standard long action at something like 2.5 for the case length and with a nice neck. 105 grains of water. nothing else is needed really.

    I thought about the 300 norma magnum but that is a tad overbored too. I like the geometry of that cartrige. It has a nice wide column and consistent ignition but like the lapua is too wide and too much. Perfect for the 338 caliber but not so good for the 308. So something like that in .555 base diameter will be more than plenty.
    I love lapua, the brass is the best but I wish they had a rimless magnum case with the standard bolt face to get down or up to 308.



    Initially I can also form Dakota cases from RUM brass. The only difference is that I need to wildcat and use the standard magnum bolt face that is what I want anyway.
    I think however the remingtom rum brass is too soft but I at least seems decent consistency wise and I don't load too hot for most shooting anyway.

    BTW the CNC bullets I described above you could do (potentially) 3100fps. This with a starting G1 of .802 you do the math. this becomes a laser beam round in 308. very few things can shoot that flat and that far.
    It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

    Comment


    • #3
      Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SPIKER View Post
        Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?
        You are echoing my words above. Most folks would not need anything else. But you see in order to shoot further and flatter the 300 winmag has a little issue. That is it cannot use the top of the line bullets. While the winmag match reamer allows for longer COAL still it cannot seat the best bullets due to the cartrige length and short neck. So all the wildcat does is to reduce the size of the case while slightly increase case volume by avoding the belt. This gives the capability to shoot a tad flatter and further than the best calibers including the awesome 338 lapua magnum and
        w/o getting deeper into overboring that is already a concern. Also using the standard magnum bolt face.
        You see some folks use the norma magnum and the lapua necked down to the 308 and those would be able to shoot even flatter but those are too overbored and barrels will not last. The RUM has the same problem due to the case length. This could be shortened like the Ruger American Magnum version above but the 375 Ruger seems a lot easier to make and while a little less powder is more than plenty. Also people seem very happy with the hornady brass.
        The only reason this is needed is to load extreme long range loads and bullets. This will put the best 308bullets on a transonic range up to 1Mile. There is no other reason over the venerable and popular 300 winmag.


        More than 1600fps at 1,500 yards and 10.3 mils adjustment.

        Your Input Variables
        Ballistic Coefficient 0.82 Velocity (ft/s) 3100 Weight (grains) 197
        Maximum Range (yds) 2000 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
        Sight Height (inches) 2.3 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
        Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 550
        Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 75 Humidity (%) 0.75

        Ballistics Results - 30/300 RUM / Dakota (long throat) with GS 197 CNC projectile
        RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
        Muzzle 3100 4203 -2.3 0 0 0 0 0
        100 2987 3902 0.8 -0.8 -0.2 0.4 0.3 0.1
        200 2876 3619 0 0 0 1.3 0.6 0.2
        300 2769 3354 -5 1.6 0.5 3 1 0.3
        400 2664 3104 -14.5 3.5 1 5.4 1.3 0.4
        500 2562 2870 -29 5.5 1.6 8.6 1.6 0.5
        600 2461 2650 -48.7 7.8 2.3 12.6 2 0.6
        700 2363 2443 -74.2 10.1 2.9 17.5 2.4 0.7
        800 2267 2249 -105.9 12.6 3.7 23.2 2.8 0.8
        900 2174 2067 -144.4 15.3 4.5 30 3.2 0.9
        1000 2082 1897 -190.3 18.2 5.3 37.8 3.6 1
        1100 1993 1738 -244.2 21.2 6.2 46.7 4.1 1.2
        1200 1906 1590 -306.8 24.4 7.1 56.7 4.5 1.3
        1300 1822 1452 -379 27.8 8.1 68 5 1.5
        1400 1741 1325 -461.6 31.5 9.2 80.7 5.5 1.6
        1500 1662 1208 -556 35.4 10.3 94.7 6 1.8
        1600 1586 1100 -662.7 39.5 11.5 110.2 6.6 1.9
        1700 1514 1002 -783.3 44 12.8 127.3 7.2 2.1
        1800 1444 913 -919.3 48.8 14.2 146 7.7 2.3
        1900 1379 832 -1071.7 53.9 15.7 166.4 8.4 2.4
        2000 1318 760 -1242.7 59.3 17.3 188.6 9 2.6
        It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

        Comment


        • #5
          How about the .284.The true 7mm. F - Class shooters swear by it. The .300 WinMag is just as good but it will put a hurting on your shoulder after a full day of shooting. The last medal winners used the .300 WSM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SPIKER View Post
            How about the .284.The true 7mm. F - Class shooters swear by it. The .300 WinMag is just as good but it will put a hurting on your shoulder after a full day of shooting. The last medal winners used the .300 WSM.
            The .284 is amazing. I have used this one and now it is coming back. As you said this is great for F class but not for the objective above. The bullets shoot flat and far but cannot compete
            with the 308 and 338 in extreme long range, both in range and momentum (energy on the target). If I had to choose a 7mm I would probably stick to the remmag just because of its popularity
            and can also be very accurate. When we talk about extreme long range we are talking about heavy rifles built for that purpose. Good muzzle brakes are mandatory.

            3381uprA.jpg


            It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

            Comment


            • #7
              So I could not find a picture of the 300 RAM (Remington American Magnum) variant but I think it would look
              something like the first one from the right.
              This will give me a bit more than the Dakota chamber and it feels the best balance between powder capacity and COAL.
              Water capacity: 105gr h2o.
              Case length 2.580 in (65.5 mm)

              From Right to Left:
              -300 RAM (more or less)
              -300 RUM -parent
              -300 Winchester Magnum
              -300 WSM
              -30.06
              -308 Winchester.

              It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

              Comment


              • #8
                Meke,

                I have been reading your many posts and I must say I am impressed with the knowledge base you have created. I would like to ask to be put in your will so that I can have access to all, and I mean all of the spiral bound note books you have filled!

                PS, cal 30 rules, especially in the 210+ range!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SPIKER View Post
                  Not to sound cinical, but as a .300 WinMag shooter, what else could possibly be better? Wildman saw me take out a beer can at 200 yds..accuracy, power...what else could you hope for?
                  Not to sound cynical, but is taking out a beer can at 200 yards supposed to mean something special?
                  NRA Life Member
                  NRA Basic Rifle Instructor
                  www.unconvictedfelon.com
                  www.facebook.com/blackcoyotesrt

                  I was thinking of his cannon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just to put things into perspective....
                    If you can hit your target at 2000 yards it has similar energy than a 180gr load in 357 Mangun rifle with the muzzle against the intended target.
                    That is why for those who would like to have that kind of capability. Otherwise there is no need.
                    So the 308 with strong super magnum cases will be hard to displace from the hunting and military fields.
                    And for those tactical shooters and military the solid CNC bullets have still somewhat decent anti material capabilities as well.
                    It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm surprised Meketrefe isn't hand loading his own 14.9 SOP yet.

                      We need one of those for the next "shot heard round NY".
                      NRA Life Member
                      NRA Basic Rifle Instructor
                      www.unconvictedfelon.com
                      www.facebook.com/blackcoyotesrt

                      I was thinking of his cannon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Not yet! LOL
                        Bullet Number
                        Bore Diameter mm / inch
                        Groove Diameter mm / inch
                        Suitable for Calibers
                        5871690SP011
                        14.66
                        0.577
                        14.90
                        0.587
                        14.9mm / .587"
                        Length mm/inch
                        Nose Length mm/inch
                        Weight g / gr
                        101.0
                        3.98
                        60.1
                        2.37
                        109.5
                        1,690
                        Speed
                        Max m/sec
                        Max fps
                        m/sec
                        fps
                        m/sec
                        fps
                        1,021
                        3,350
                        693
                        2,275
                        366
                        1,200
                        BC
                        2.169
                        1.900
                        1.364
                        COL: To determine the minimum and maximum cartridge overall length with this bullet, add the minimum or maximum values to your cartridge case length.
                        Min mm/inch
                        63
                        2.48
                        Max mm/inch
                        83
                        3.27
                        This bullet is recommended for:
                        Single Shot Feed
                        STABILITY FACTOR AND TWIST RATE
                        A Stability Factor greater than 1.2 is required. Any combination of twist rate and bullet length that does not give at least that, is not suitable. SP bullets are non-expanding spitser type bullets and are not recommended for hunting, unless you have a specific application. For use under 500m, a Stability Factor of 1.5 or even greater can be used. For distances beyond 500m the stability factor can be decreased, but must never be less than 1.2. Some experimentation will be required to determine the best combination for your particular atmospheric conditions.
                        Choose a bullet length best suited to your rifle twist and type of shooting.
                        Note that S/F increases as twist tightens. A 1:10" twist is tighter than a 1:12" twist.
                        It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Please let me know when you head to the range to test your loads on that one. Those bullets are big enough to write delivery message on.

                          Long delivery messages.
                          NRA Life Member
                          NRA Basic Rifle Instructor
                          www.unconvictedfelon.com
                          www.facebook.com/blackcoyotesrt

                          I was thinking of his cannon.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No problem. We will let you know. It will take a while as I have three other projects on the stove right now.
                            It is a shame when people demanding tolerance, have no tolerance

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WARFAB View Post

                              Not to sound cynical, but is taking out a beer can at 200 yards supposed to mean something special?
                              Yeah, it is pretty cool. Why, you disagree?

                              Chris Kyle...is that you?
                              Last edited by SPIKER; 01-10-2015, 07:00 PM. Reason: Being a wiseass

                              Comment

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